The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
OverTheHills presents the first article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME international Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Oral bacteria causing TH1 induction and reinfection of the gut?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by sb4, Oct 22, 2017.

  1. sb4

    sb4 Senior Member

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    Ectopic colonization of oral bacteria in the intestine drives TH1 cell induction and inflammation
    http://science.sciencemag.org/content/358/6361/359

    This is interesting to me for multiple reasons. I got CFS from tonsilitus (caused by bacteria in the mouth?) and very soon after getting ill my teeth got massively worse. I remember about maybe 3 weeks after getting ill, looking in the mirror and being very shocked at how my gums had gone from normal to very receded in a couple of weeks. The only reason it took me so long to notice is because my gums kept bleeding when brushing so I decided to eventually look in the mirror. My oral health has remained very bad throughout this last 6 years, my gums very inflammed, my tounge always very coated, breath sticks, teeth sensitivities, etc.

    So could it be possible that I got some bad bacteria in my mouth from tonsilitus which keeps reinfecting my gut causing bad gut bacteria and then CFS? Could this be why some benefit from anti-virals yet others do not. For some virus is the issue (and thus TH2 dominant) so taking a TH1 stimulant/antiviral/etc helps, for others bacteria is the issue so a TH2 stimulant/antibiotic/etc helps, for other cause is different so niether would help.

    My teeth got worse about a month ago so I started oil pulling with coconut oil. My oral health has improved slightly and tongue coating is less (but still present), however I cannot say what difference this has had on my health (presumably very little).

    What do you guys think?
     
  2. TreePerson

    TreePerson Senior Member

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    I don't know. But I just want to say that my gums bled in the early stages of ME. It was one of the many weird things that I noticed. I also had the coated tongue for several years early on. At some point that went. I haven't had that for a long time now. Although I still have ME which is currently deteriorating.

    I have been trying to think if there was anything I did that might have helped the oral health. The only things that might tie in to the time this improved are taking olive tree extract, giving up milk in tea ( I feel like a strong black tea sterilises), vegetarian diet.

    Or I suppose the shift could have been to do with the shift in the immune system that is supposed to happen several years in. That would also correspond.

    Anyway none of that answers your question but thought it might be of interest.
     
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  3. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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  4. sb4

    sb4 Senior Member

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    It was. Do you think the change in immune system that happens years in to this disease is a switch from TH1 to 2 or visaversa or do you think its the immune system failing / getting weaker?

    Interestingly enough I tried high dose vitamin C last month for a couple of weeks but had to stop due to constipation which should be the opposite effect.

    Thanks for the other article, looks interesting, I'll read it soon.
     
  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Most cases of tonsillitis are caused by viruses, it says here. The viruses that cause tonsillitis include Epstein-Barr virus, cytomegalovirus and enterovirus — all viruses linked to causing ME/CFS.

    So I'd say it is more likely that you caught a virus, and the virus triggered your tonsillitis as well as ME/CFS. Have you been tested for active infections with the above viruses?



    When I caught my ME/CFS-triggering virus in 2003, as this virus spread to over 30 friends and family, a sudden onset of receding gums (periodontitis) was common in people who caught my virus. Literally within a few months of catching the virus, I noticed that my gums (in perfect health previously) had mysteriously started to receded.

    This periodontitis occurred very quickly, even before I had developed ME/CFS from the virus. I also noticed that a lot more brown plaque suddenly started to get deposited on my teeth (possibly due to some immunosuppressive effects of the virus, allowing oral bacteria to proliferate).

    Based on blood tests and symptoms, the virus I caught was likely coxsackievirus B4, a common ME/CFS virus. More details about my virus given on my website here.

    Picture of My Receding Gums
    My receding gums triggered by CVB4.jpg


    As to how a viral infection can cause sudden onset of receding gums (periodontitis), my investigations led me to conjecture that the connective tissue-destroying enzymes that the immune system produces when it is fighting infection may be responsible.

    The gums are constructed from connective tissues (such as collagen and elastin), and in response to viral infections like coxsackievirus B, the immune system is known to secrete connective tissue-destroying enzymes such as MMP-2, MMP-2, MMP-8, MMP-9 and MMP-12. These MMPs are matrix metalloproteinases, and are a type of connective tissue-destroying enzyme. I think these MMP enzymes induced by a chronic viral infection are destroying the gums, leading to periodontitis.

    In fact, elevated levels of matrix metalloproteinases are a known cause of periodontal disease, and a standard medical treatment for receding gums is the drug Periostat, which inhibits MMP-2, MMP-8 and MMP-13, in an attempt to block further gum damage from these enzymes. There are also lots of supplements that can inhibit matrix metalloproteinases, such as the triphala herbal formula. Q10 is also an excellent supplement for gum health and periodontal disease.

    However, nowhere in the medical literature has anyone made a connection between chronic viral infection, the MMPs that are secreted in response to such infection, and periodontal disease. This is my own hypothesis. I think periodontal disease is most likely the result of a chronic viral infection inducing connective tissue-destroying enzymes. Oral bacteria may also play a role in periodontitis, especially if the virus has some mild immunosuppressive properties that allow more oral bacteria to proliferate.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
  6. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    I've noticed that when ever I have a sinus infection the gunk seems to go down to my stomach. Takes a few days. Initially I feel nausea then get pain and further stomach upsets.
     
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  7. sb4

    sb4 Senior Member

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    @Hip Very interesting, thanks. I do suspect, like you, that my CFS is viral onset however tonsilitus can be caused by bacteria also such as Strep.

    I understand what you are saying about MMPs and the link to gum reccesion and think it could well be right however it doesn't seem to explain the coated tongue that also occurs. Perhaps the immune system is weakened by fighting the virus that allows bacteria to proliferate?
     
  8. TreePerson

    TreePerson Senior Member

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    Hi @sb4. Like many people in the UK I've had almost no tests. So I don't know what my TH1 and TH2s are doing.
    But I would say that my immune system is now most likely overactive/protective based on the fact that I almost never catch colds.

    I find the early part of my illness very difficult to remember because I was so overwhelmed by what had happened to my body and also having to care for three children. I don't think I caught colds then either but I did get skin infections and definitely the coated tongue bleeding gums. I think I felt more toxic in the first few years. I felt actively ill more of the time e.g. flu feelings.

    My illness did seem to stabilise after about five years but it could just be that it took that long to get to grips with it and climb far enough up to stand a decent chance of not immediately falling back down again.
     
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  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    @sb4
    If you have a tongue coating, that is a different phenomenon. My virus also caused me to get geographic tongue, a type of white tongue coating (my geographic tongue appeared within days of catching my virus, and I still have the same white tongue coating now, 14 year later). Some info about the various types of tongue coating in this post.

    The cause and pathophysiology of geographic tongue is not known, but some theories suggest geographic tongue may be an oral form of psoriasis, an autoimmune condition. So geographic tongue may be an autoimmune phenomenon, whereas the periodontitis I theorize is due to virally-induced connective-tissue degrading enzymes.

    Were you tested for Epstein-Barr virus, cytomegalovirus and enterovirus?
     
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  10. TreePerson

    TreePerson Senior Member

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    Really interesting @Hip The linkup between those viral infections tonsillitis and periodontal disease. I definitely had the gum thing very early on almost before the PEM had taken hold.

    I am also interested in the tonsillitis explanation as one of my daughters has recently had the experience of bouts of tonsillitis which she has been told are not bacterial. She did a lot of running. And she was finding that the running was making her ill reactivating the tonsillitis giving her PEM type symptoms.

    She went to the doctor hoping he could suggest something for the tonsils. But instead after blood tests he wanted to refer her to a CFS clinic. She was still working full-time (apart from when the tonsillitis was acute), going out just couldn't exercise. Pretty much like GETSET Julie.

    I told her not to bother with the clinic and to stop running and she did. She is currently okay no more tonsillitis working full-time able to go out etc.
     
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  11. sb4

    sb4 Senior Member

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    @Hip I've got to say that my tongue coating doesn't look like any listed in the post however it does look somewhat like the image search for "coated tongue" just not as bad. It also gets reduced with coconut oil pulling, suggesting bacteria rather than immune, which reminds me, coconut oil helped in my original tonsilitus that kicked this all off although that means it could be either viral or bacterial.

    I have had very little in the way of decent testing however managed to get me an appoinment at infectious disease unit through NHS. They are testing me for CMV and it looks like EBV but I'm not sure how useful these will be so long after the original insult.
     
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  12. realturbo

    realturbo Senior Member

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    I have found swishing with a cap-full of 50-50 mixture of 3% hydrogen peroxide and water for a few minutes after brushing my teeth to greatly help with gum health and tongue health. I suggested it to a friend who kept biting his tongue, he reported back the problem had been resolved, suggesting that his tongue might have been enlarged due to inflammation, and the hydrogen peroxide may have reduce the inflammation, bringing the tongue back to normal size.
     
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  13. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    These days, my tongue coating also looks like the images found in the Google images search of coated tongue. But in the first few years of my tongue coating, it looked more like the image of geographic tongue coating, in which there is a patchy coverage. But in my case, after a few years, the patches disappeared, and the white coating became even and uniform over my tongue.



    Some ME/CFS patients will get viral symptom flare-ups after exertion, so that's could be what is happening with this exercise-induced tonsillitis.

    The tonsils are also one of the locations implicated in focal infection theory — the historical idea that local infection might cause chronic systemic disease.

    Although focal infection theory fell out of favor, it's enjoyed some revival recently. From the ME/CFS perspective, we have seen cases of ME/CFS caused or worsened by jaw bone cavitation infections (see here). So these jaw bone cavitations are an example of a focal infection (localized infection) that might play a role in ME/CFS. Whether any focal infection in the tonsils does likewise, it's hard to say, but I have not seen any evidence for it.
     
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  14. TreePerson

    TreePerson Senior Member

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    Yes @Hip I don't think she really has ME/CFS in the way I understand it. More like she just been over exercising. Although I took it as a sign that she might have a predisposition so need to be more careful. When she exercised it seemed to go to her weak spot which was the tonsils. But she also began getting all over pain and leg ache which I didn't like. But I didn't know that tonsillitis could be caused by the viruses that are linked with ME. So overall it feels right that she is extra cautious.
     
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  15. perchance dreamer

    perchance dreamer Senior Member

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