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Methylation/detox and antidepressant withdrawl

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Spring, Jan 11, 2014.

  1. Spring

    Spring Senior Member

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    Netherlands
    Hello,

    I am going trough lyme treatment right now and I have a lot of herxheimer reactions. I have been trying to get my methylation going so my body can get rid of the toxins. But all attempts failed because all these supplements wash away my antidepressant. I go into acute withdrawl.

    I've tried lactoferrin (which helps with glutathione) B12 extreme (from prohealth with 4 kinds of B12 including high dose methylcobalamin) and folinic acid (did not have the courage yet to try methafolate).
    Something strange is going on there as the withdrawl seems to be catalized at te moment I eat something with soy/lecitin/soylecitin in it. Well, I've seen lecitin in methylation protocols so it might not be that strange, but I would not expect much lecitin in some cookies.

    I've searched the internet for methylation and prescription drugs. I found information about being able to stop some prescription medications, but nothing about needing more of them.

    I really need my antidepressant. I use Mirtazapine. I have increased the dose from a very low dose of 7,5 mg, to a 'normal' dose of 30 mg. But it does not help!

    When I take one of these supplements I get a lot of fasciculations over my whole body and I get all symtpoms of withdrawl. After two days my mood drops from normal to very depressed.
    It does not help to take extra mirtazapine when I feel the withdrawl symptoms. I need to wait till the fasciculations are over before it will start working again.

    If I stop al these supplements my mood recovers within a few days. But I need to be careful with the lecitin for a while.

    Does this sounds familiar to anyone?

    Does this sound like overmethylation?

    I was very sensitive to medication before. That is why I used such a low dose of mirtazapine. It makes sense to me that if you stimulate the detox pathways, you also stimulate the metabolism of prescription drugs. But I cannot find information on this.

    My testresults on MTHFR were:
    1298A/C high activity
    677C/T moderate activity

    I don't know what this means.

    Thanks!
     
  2. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    @Spring Hi there sorry I don't have much to contribute, your situation is quite complex. But what stuck out at me from your story is that I too have had quite a bit of sensitivity to soy lecithin, and any lecithin for that matter. I hypothesized that it was from the choline, which has a sulphur component. Dunno, I know it is used in the Dr. Yasko's myelination protocols to promote new nerve growth, but I agree with you that one wouldn't expect that there would be that much of the lecithin in a cookie for example. I've had to be careful about overstimulating the detox pathways too, and I have seen others have problems with using too much Calcium D Glucarate which facilitated Stage 2 Liver detox, and over processing thyroid hormones. When you say:
    What are you exactly experiencing when you say "withdrawal?" Increase in fatigue/depressive symptoms, anxiety?

    Are fasciculations muscle twitching? As I certainly have had these at various stages of starting up methylation. I just attributed them to the re-myelination that Yasko speaks of.

    My hunch is that you need to go really slow with the introduction of methylation supports as they will stimulate liver detox. Your negative symptoms that seem to be associated with the lecithin might be just an increase in systematic agitation that is associated with overmethylation.

    I would titrate your dose of methylB12 down to a very small dose. I had to start at 250mcg/day. If you still have your B12 Extreme, I would split it into tiny doses and take that at small doses.
    Once you feel stable at a dose where you are not going into acute withdrawal, and are stable here for a week or two, I would introduce a tiny, tiny, tiny dose of methylfolate. For example, I have 1000mg capsules that I split into 1/16 doses that I would take on alternating days of my methylB12.

    Yes, as am I. Especially those that stimulate neurotransmitter activity. I have a MAO A+/+ mutation. Have you looked into this snp? My readings are that it affects people differently. But with myself I tend to be very, very sensitive to serotonin changes. I take a tiny amount of 5-HTP twice per day. Any more than this I get tired/wired, any less than this I have symptoms of depression. My understanding with this snp is that if activated people can experience pooling/downregulation of serotonin expression very easily. There's quite a bit of good information re: this snp if you wish to read more in this thread: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/rs6323-mao-a-what-this-gene-does-if-its-bust.15379/

    Interpreting test results is not my strength, but how I would read this is that your MTHFR 677C/T Gene is underactive, thus you would benefit from methylfolate supplementation.

    Hope some of this helps, all the best
     
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City
    Hi Star,

    I would get rid of that specific b12 brand and set of types and start with the Enzymatic Therapy MeCbl. That could change everything. One tablet would be a fine starting place. The fasciculations and some other things could be caused by MeCbl deficiency that is not handled by that brand. The Enzymatic Therapy is the only one I would rate 5 stars for the central nervous system.
     
  4. kelly138

    kelly138

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    have you gone off a benzo or z-drug (ambien for example) after being on it a few weeks (or longer)?

    are you MSG sensitive? soy lecithin can be made to be high free glutamate or low - you don't know in a product which until you try it - I can react to some products with it with a MSG type reaction (the twitches might be that - might be more) and other products with soy lecithin I can handle no problem

    your cookies might have been high free glutamate too
     
    Star-Anise likes this.
  5. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd
    Could you tell us again the exact brands you recommend for the two forms of B12 and methylfolate and anything else that needs to be brand specific. I am finding different info in different places. Thanks
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City
    Right now, as of Jan, 2014, the 5 star brand of MeCbl I know of is Enzymatic Therapy B12 Infusion. The Most effective AdoCbl I know of is the Anabol Naturals. L-methylfolate comes in a number of varieties and brands. I've successfully used Metafolin (Merck) in a vitamin by Solgar. There are other vitamin and prescription forms of Metafolin that should all be good depending upon other ingredients also packed with them. There are other makers of L-methylfolate that should be just fine but I haven't tested them yet. Others are and might have specific opinions about those other forms. In this CFS/FMS group L-carnitine fumarate appears to be effective for about 90% of people and ALCAR about 10% for reasons unknown. I find that Drs Best and Jarrow are both excellent and are made by SigmaTau in Italy. There may be other brands too. The form is more important than the brand for carnitine. Somebody reported good results with the Swanson LCF.

    The thing is that the balance between all the components is something each person has to titrate and find for themselves. There are starting points but no exact amounts that work for everybody. It is a lot of work. I don't believe that can be simplified. Good luck
     

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