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metal detox before or after chelation?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Aerose91, Sep 20, 2014.

  1. Aerose91

    Aerose91 Senior Member

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    I've seen some success with the Cutler protocol but I will probably start on something lighter such as minerals and zeolite for metals first.

    Should this be done after, or even during methylation though? Will methylation mobilize metals and such? If so is a chelation protocol good or something more like binders during methylation...
     
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    My impression/understanding is that this will work well in tandem. Methylation will increase your detox; detox will improve your methylation. Yes, binders. chlorella, clay. I use clay and charcoal in footbaths, so the charcoal doesn't carry away all my + nutrients.
     
  3. Alea Ishikawa

    Alea Ishikawa

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    I remember the late Dr. Rich Van K. (richvank) said it was better to start methylation first to help with metal detox. However, high mercury can hinder methylation. It all depends on your body's condition.

    Eric (howirecovered) has switched between methylation and chelation with some success. His blog is here. I would not recommend doing both protocols at the same time, because either one can throw you for a loop.


    Chelation is heavy-duty metal removal. Cutler's protocol will take metal out of the brain and you will end up with some in the blood stream. I'd suggest getting amalgam out first, as there is concern chelating agents can take metal from the teeth, into the blood, and into the brain, which can make symptoms worse.

    Vitamins, minerals, and toxin-binding are actually recommended with methylation and chelation. For example, Rich Van K. recommended activated charcoal. Cutler wrote on the necessity of antioxidants like vitamin C during chelation. Freddd talked about essentials and co-factors in his version of the methylation protocol (He might have updated info since then).


    I've read Cutler is against chlorella because it is not a strong binder and can redistribute mercury, possibly into the brain. Some people have had bad experiences. One person took about a year to recover from it.

    Personally, I would suggest skipping herbals here and building up on basics before attempting chelation.
     
  4. Aerose91

    Aerose91 Senior Member

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    Thanks a lot for the help. I'd say I'm currently on the right track, then. I am constantly taking vitamins and minerals that I'm depleted in and activated charcoal. My doctor also wants me to start on binders like welchols too when I go out to the desert and increase the methylation.

    I figured methylation and the correct minerals would start detoxing metals as well, good to know there aren't any more crazy protocols that are needed on top of them.
     
  5. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    :eek:
    Dietrich Klinghardt recommends it, uses it w/ kids, and fortunately I had no problems with it, only good.

    Here's a repost of something I posted on another thread recently. I have no horse in this race. Just offering some resources.

    And from Mercola:
    Also, very interesting paper Cosigned by Mercola and Klinghardt, published 2001, lays out mercury detox and elements involved. http://www.mercola.com/article/mercury/mercury_elimination.htm
    And Mike Adams loves cilantro: http://www.naturalnews.com/027434_cilantro_natural_detox.html
     
  6. Aerose91

    Aerose91 Senior Member

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    Anyone have any experience with zeolite?

    And do binders pull out minerals, too? Seems like it would be difficult for them to be specific to just metals when your body interchanges one for the other.
     
  7. Alea Ishikawa

    Alea Ishikawa

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    I would take some things from Mercola, Klinghardt, and Adams with a grain of salt.

    Mercola supports the use of monthly DMPS injections of 3 to 5 mg/kg, which is contraindicated due to the high amount and frequency, here. Klinghardt advises a DMPS IV "challenge," also contraindicated, here.

    I didn't know much of Adams until I looked him up, but he denies the reality of HIV/AIDS here and encourages vegan parents to lie to the state, here. There's unfortunately also more negative press on him elsewhere. Some of what he says might be truthful, but it might help to have additional information bumped against his assessments.

    I don't agree with everything Cutler says. As far as I can see, though, some of his suppositions make sense.


    Although chlorella and cilantro can mobilize metal (PubMed has at least one study on this), they can cause significant and unnecessary damage. See Cutler statement here. Chlorella lacks the two "SH" (double thiol or dithiol). Cutler says not enough is known about cilantro and you'll find horror stories around the internet on its use.

    (Note: I also found cysteine, from supplemental whey/glutathione or NAC, has one thiol. Rich Van K. talked about cysteine potentially transporting mercury into the brain and how mercury can cause neurotoxic levels of cysteine, here. Is this why Freddd and others had trouble with it?)

    In contrast, DMSA and ALA contain a dithiol. The dithiol allows for a tighter bond with mercury to help shuttle it out of the body.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2014
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  8. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @ Alea Ishikawa. Wow:bang-head: I'm not beholden to any expert, just making my way through the minefield the best I can. Mike Adams is decidedly weird. Unfortunately, it's hard to know which bits to believe. For my own detox, I did the most conservative things I could find. I used chlorella, not cilantro. Metal-magnet, of a couple different types (fulvic, humic) bentonite and magnetic clay, charcoal. Much of those I used in footbaths to avoid further aggravating my gut...Zeolites will be the next purchase, if and when I neeed something more when my fulvic runs out. Thanks for your findings.:thumbsup:
     
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  9. Alea Ishikawa

    Alea Ishikawa

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    Yeah, it's definitely a minefield!

    No problem. :)


    @Aerose91 and @ahmo - I did some research and am now very wary of zeolite. See Cutler post here and here. There is a study, but there are several issues: Erik "Rik" Deitsch is known for his unethical behavior; James Flowers's his business partner and product manufacturer; and Stewart Lonky has vested interest in two of Deitsich's companies (credit to T. Sykes and S. Penney for this one).

    I also found:
    Waiora Faces Potential Fraud Class Action over Natural Cellular Defense Nutritional Supplement
    Waiora Pays $12M To Settle Suit Over Anti-Aging Supplement

    Waiora is a producer of "liquid zeolite." The defendant list included Waiora's Erik Deitsch and James Flowers. (It looks like Deitsch was later dropped, but he's been in trouble in other areas.)

    The "WV Coal Miner" study looks suspiciously similar to the Flowers et al. study (noted by S. Penney). Note the "waiora" in the lower left-hand corner. The contact email is at "ncdsupport.com" which is "The Official Website for Natural Cellular Defense." If you look here, Erik Deitsch is associated with Wellness Industries, LLC., which is marked as providing funding for the document.



    Another study was sponsored by the "Zeolite Trial Ethics Committee." In the study overview, you can see the sponsor's address, which actually belongs to ZEO Health, seller of powdered zeolite.

    Dr. Karampahtsis claims to check three products, but they have 10 people on powder, 5 on drops, and 5 on spray - which is unevenly weighted. The study has no control group. All participants consumed the powder by the end of the 1st outcome. Only 10 participants had their liquid zeolite results counted, but all 20 had their powder results counted, which weights results in favor of the powder.


    Dr. Karampahtsis states 68.4% of participants on powder excreted >=50% more Tungsten. Wait, 68.4%?

    13 / 20 = 65%
    14 / 20 = 70%

    This doesn't make sense. How do you get 68.4% from 20 people?


    Micah Portney, owner of ZEO Health, writes about the study:
    Figure 2 shows 14 of 20 metals were "significantly" excreted by varying amounts of powder participants, with powder beating out liquid in 11 metals.

    11 or 14 ≠ 20.

    Why would Portney lie?

    Interestingly, Dr. Karampahtsis states that some metals were excreted more prior to using zeolite (whether powder or liquid is not made clear).

    Something is amiss. :(


    Marketers claim zeolite passes through the gut and doesn't get into your bloodstream (meaning by definition it can't chelate). It might pull out some electrolytes. This study notes zeolite in simulated blood-like fluid can result in a release of Silicon.

    Another article:
    :vomit:



    Admittedly, I haven't delved as much into bentonite clay or activated charcoal.

    Here is a N=1 study and cat study suspecting bentonite clay can take out an electrolyte. It can also affect medications. Another paper says it's beneficial for pharmaceutical application. If you use it, be careful and remember to keep up electrolytes. You might want to start with something simpler, like a foot-bath.

    For internal use, I've heard calcium bentonite is best. Avoid sodium bentonite and kaolinite.



    Activated charcoal works by binding to things in the stomach, does not get into the blood stream, and has little effect on electrolytes. Take the gelatin capsule version if you still have silver fillings. Take it apart from foods/meds, due to adsorbancy. (Things cling to the surface rather than get integrated in the substance.)

    _theliquidzeolitebook.com/zeolite-information/where-are-those-clinical-trials-anyway/
    _timothysykes.com/2009/10/the-skeletons-in-nphcs-closet-zeolite-detox-environmental-toxins-mlms-embezzlement-ftc-rebukes/
    _theliquidzeolitebook.com/zeolite-information/liquid-zeolite-why-i-no-longer-promote-it-by-shelley-penney/
    _theliquidzeolitebook.com/zeolite-information/liquid-zeolite-why-i-no-longer-promote-it-by-shelley-penney/i-do-not-sell-liquid-zeolite-part-2/
    _theliquidzeolitebook.com/zeolite-information/waiora-white-paper-madness-the-fraud-continues/

    _ zeolite.net.nz/index.php/why-use-zeolite
    _etszeolite.com/
    _etszeolite.com/html/zeolite_faq.html#bloodstream
    _yourncdinfo.com/ncd.html
    _thezeoliteexpert.com/comparing-the-detoxing-powers-of-zeolite-supplements-overview-of-a-clinical-study/
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2014
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  10. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Wow. [​IMG]
     
  11. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    Some metals can cross back and forth through the blood-brain-barrier and do. Lead for example seems to be one of these. Body and brain levels will be reasonably close.

    Mercury on the other hand arrives on the scene as methylmercury but once it crosses the BBB the methyl group is stripped and it forms into the more toxic Hg2. Half life of around 15 years (although likely longer for those with serious methylation problems, I suspect).

    Therefore, only substances that can bring Hg back out of the brain will lead to recovery from Hg-tox. And the only things that can do that to my current knowledge are alpha lipoic acid (Cutler), cilantro, and OSR. I do not know a single useful thing about OSR and will not embarrass myself by proving it. Let's move on to cilantro. It does chelate Hg - not sure how and I'm not sure of the half-life which is somewhat important when chelating. I'll detail this point if anyone is interested, otherwise I'll save time and continue.

    So not knowing the half-life makes the dosing of cilantro tricky....but not impossible. I suspect that there is a way of doing this even if it involved taking small amounts every hour or so....unfortunately, around the clock.

    The other problem is conformity from one bottle or batch to the next. These are plants and there will be some variation depending on growing conditions/ seasonal factors, processing and diligence in terms of dose measurements. Anyone who has been treating naturally knows by now the amount of variation that occurs from one capsule to the next.

    ALA is the one that I have used. So far I have dropped my Hg levels from 35 to 3. Now that's of course no indication that the levels in my brain are at 3. In fact, I'm sure that they are not (yet). That took me 3.5 years - although, who knows I may have been stable at 3 for some time now. So, alpha lipoic acid works.

    Zeolites, chorella and such that stay in the gut may or may not help in the short term = lowering re-absorption of Hg and therefore speeding the detox of the body. They will do nothing for the Hg in the brain and Hg-tox is a CNS poisoning. I went Mad-as-a-Hatter and was hospitalized a few times for Bipolar 15 years ago. It disappeared early in my move against Hg in 2011.

    That said charcoal, zeolites, chorella won't make Hg-tox worse and so I don't have any strong opinions on them. I have huge absorption problems (iron for one) and have never been interested in anything that potentially binds nutrients in the gut.

    The one thing that is important to know...and I can not stress this enough....mess this up and you will get very sick. I did and I lost thyroid function, adrenal function, testosterone production (Hg is hell on the endocrine system) and I slipped down the rabbit hole of ME/CFS. And make no mistake about it. No matter how sick a person is, they can still get sicker.

    Cutler has a proven, safe (as it can be) protocol that has helped thousands. I found it late and by that time couldn't comprehend what I read or decipher the warnings that people on the forums were trying to give me. There are testimonies attesting to the dangers of IV chelation and cilantro but very few against ALA when taken according to its half-life and supported with chelation supplementation. People get well and take their lives back.

    I'm going to stop now. Either I have gotten my point across or I haven't. I have had people contact me privately and I will help if I can. brad
     
  12. Aerose91

    Aerose91 Senior Member

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    Well said, @stridor

    It would seem to me that hitting chelation (lets use Cutler protocol for example) May be best after a ways into methylation so your body is hopefully a little less toxic and working a bit more efficiently to expel the metals that will be released. Would you guys agree?
     
  13. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    @Aerose91
    I think that putting the methylation supports in place first is very supportable. Just don't wait too long trying to perfect things as it may not be possible until at least some of the metal is gone. Everyone, even those without known methylation pathway susceptibility, should be on some B vitamin support.
    One can use this time to get the amalgams removed.

    I was 18 months into chelation before I was directed to consider B12. By that time, I was depressed, had been sent home from work "incapable" (because my IQ, already in trouble, would drop when I stood up). I had no exercise tolerance and my thoughts were turning dark (that means what you think it means). So no, don't try chelation without some form of B's on board. In my case I had mfolate but very little B12 in comparison.

    One potential problem of starting both treatments around the same time is that is harder to know what symptom belongs to which treatment and therefore what to do next. But it sure beats doing nothing at all.

    Even done correctly, most people can expect to get worse before they get better. That is the down side and it can be tempered by slow methodical chelation with breaks when needed. The upside is that people get better chelating and a portion - perhaps the majority, may be able recover their methylation systems once the toxins quit interfering with it. This is something that Cutler believes in strongly and he considers cases like mine to be "unusual". I think that many of you will be "unusual" too :)

    Myself, I suspect that I will be on some degree of Freddds protocol forever. We are the one percenters. brad.
     
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  14. Aerose91

    Aerose91 Senior Member

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    Ha, "unusual" doesn't even cover the half of it so far.

    That makes sense to me, I've already started Freddd's protocol and am definitely feeling some "startup rewctions" as he puts it. I'm also going to be moving to the desert soon so I was thinking of continuing my methylation treatments out there and eventually picking up the Cutler protocol afterward. I just don't want to wait too long, figure it's best to do one major thing at a time though.
     
  15. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Cambodia

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