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Massive Rash after switching b12 , possible? and questions

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by matters, Jun 24, 2014.

  1. matters

    matters

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    Hi,

    I recently switched to source naturals methyl b12 10,000 mcg. I was biting off half of it
    and then taking my methyl folate some 4 hours later. Not sure if it's the brand or what..but my butt, back of my legs are all red and extremely itchy.. the day before I had welts under the skin, was really hard, if that makes sense. As well as the itchiness.


    I came off the jarrow 5000 mcg after hearing it might not be as effective. Was on that for about 2 months.. Is it possible I'm od'ing on b12? I"m homozygous mthr C6667 T. I know I have issues with anemia as my mch and mcv values are consistently in the top range. And my blood under the microscope shows little donut holes. Which suggests anemia. Should I stop taking it or back way down? I took methyl b12 and methyl folate for a month back 2012 before I was even aware of my genetics.. Never had a problem with rashes Although my levels were off the chart and I still had the high mcv values (97) It took the same highish dosage.. no rash
    Obviously my body isn't breaking it down though,

    Also, do healthy people have these same mutations we all seem to share? Has anybody tested a "healthy" friend or what now and seen similar profiles? I know genetics plays a role, but there must be another X factor that keeps people healthy.. I was never sick.

    I'm Homozygous Vdr tak, shmt1 C1420t, mao r297r, mthfr c667t
    Hetero, Com158m, comh62h, Acat1-2, MTRR A66g, MTRR A664A, Bhmt-04, CBS C6991

    Once again, I was extremely fit and healthy up until 2011 - age 44. I had some mold issues in a foreclosure (was never disclosed - they knew and treated for mold, obviously not effectively ) and it absolutely crushed me. Now my fingers and toes are turning yellow, brown. and fungus issue. My lungs are weaker, liver issues, possible pancreas, ibs, candida, no libido.. fungus in my blood, some lyme like cysts.. possibly somatid cycle

    It feels like I'm already dead, trying to fight back with many different diets, candida diet, paleo , vegan, raw, all with limited success..now i'm on fruits and vegs so I can get some good bowel movements again.. Do you think the mold turned all these genes on? Or my genetics just can't get rid of these toxins? I've taken the charcoal etc and got the tricothecenes down to normal levels.. I was 20x above normal. I've seen vids of people literally turning brain dead from less overload.. so i'm grateful it didn't take everything away.. But it still has left me pretty broken. Losing my libido and zest for life and my emotions really sux it's like my soul is gone.. I'm only 47 and don't want to live with my new personality.. it's not me, I'll never accept it..

    If somebody can offer some advice or protocol that would be great. I'm trying the yasko protocol but keep hitting dead ends.. with fatigue and now these rashes.. also trying to detox with sauna and pemf.. it's a 24 /7 job.. business is slipping bigtime. If i lose that i'm done..

    thanks again for everybody reading this and considering help.

    Matt
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Hi Matt. How much folate are you taking? Mfolate form? If you're not meeting B12 w/ folate could easily push histamine reaction. From the figures you put above, you just doubled your B12 dose in one wallop. Too much.

    Freddd's approach differs from others. His experience is that starting low and going slow can lead to methy traps, a lot of discomfort. So it might be that you can just bring folate up to a level that meets your current B12, or rather, your former 5mg of B12. You'll have to experiment. Here are some different resources, and a quote from Freddd.

    Also, detox must be a major part of your regimen. I don't know what pemf is. My detox regimen combined elements of Klinghardt, the GAPS diet emphasis on juicing, clay...But the major element has been coffee enemas. It's been like a full-time job, but it's really helped me clear my body of toxins. Even once a week would help your liver. I've just consolidated my experience into a blog entry.

    I'm sorry you're so ill. Stress is also a big player in pushing us into illness. I always thought I was handling stress, but not so. Your genetic profile sets you up for feeling bad emotionally. And you've probably nailed both factors, mold turning on your genetic predisposition, plus difficulty detoxxing.

    That's all I can offer in the moment. I think this forum is the best place you can be, there are many experienced folks to help problem-solve. :nerd:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?entries/my-detox-story-coffee-enemas.1616/

    howirecovered.com/active-b12-therapy-faq/

    Methylation Made Easy

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=o4uqEDK6BvM


    Start Low and Go Slow
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...w-to-be-safe-on-a-methylation-protocol.26711/

    Roadblocks to Successful Methylation:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...to-successful-methylation-treatment-pdf.6827/
    TheGrandWazoo likes this.
  3. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    I'd actually think it it is unlikely you could be over dosing due to your MTHFR C667t, seeing you are only taking 5000mcg (half of 10,000mcg). I have the same mutation as you do with the MTHFR and my specialist in that, 5000mcg is his starting dose of methyl B12.

    This being said thou, there is other mutations in which can make tollerance of the methyl B12 an issue (I have other gene mutation in which can cause issues with methylB12.. fortunately Im still not having issues on the 5000mcg dose even thou some would).

    You also may be allergic to something else in the pill eg pill binders or whatever.

    Healthy people do have things like MTHFR mutation too. The rate is 9-18% of the population does depending on what country one is in. Thing is with mutations, is they usually just make people far more suspectable to certain issues (much increased risk eg the MTHFR gives a more increased risk of things like strokes, miscarriage) and will not necessarily cause the issues in all. The good thing about this mutation is that by treating it, we are possibly greatly lowering our odds of the things which could be caused by it.

    mold issues suck. I found out that I have the worst genotype for mold according to Shoemaker. Im sure those of us with it get far more health issues and of cause mold is so hard to get away from.


    I know how you feel, Im 43 thou I first got sick 17 years ago.

    Anyway best luck
  4. matters

    matters

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    Hi Ahmo,

    Thanks so much for your guidance. I was taking 1600 mcg of metafolin per day to 5000 mcg mb12 for about 2 months and then yes, I was experimenting with 10000 mcg and 2400 folate
    I'm guessing that wasn't enough? should it be a 1 to 1 ratio with mb12? I"m reading your copy of fredds protocol.. is it really 4x folate to mb12? If so then i really messed myself up.

    Latest live assessment,My red blood cells had more donut holes then previous assessment, Is this why they call it donut hole insufficiency? Maybe a stupid question :) Did i deplete my folate? The lethargy for the past two weeks certainly makes me feel this way now that i think about it. I was doing pretty good before

    Can you give me the standard ratio's of
    Mb12 to Folate to Potassium? are there any other interactions or other vitamins / minerals affected by taking these? I haven't been taking much potassium for the past 2 months now that I think of it. . 1 pill is only 99mcg, is this way short when you start taking 2400mcg of folate for example?..

    If I start upping my folate to make up for mb12 imbalance will it affect something else? how do i right the ship?

    btw,PEMF is pulsed electro magnetic frequency.. Yes between sauna , pemf, , ozone acupuncture timing of toxin binders with supps and food.it's full time job.. I'm going to start the coffee enema's too, i've been hearing that alot lately - maybe it's a sign

    Thanks so much. you guys are great..
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
  5. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @matters Let's see if this helps. I've been working on compiling a simplified guide to Freddd's Protocol, but am a little stuck in the process. This is my understanding of Fred's most recent references to start-up. Thanks for pushing me towards getting this task done, rather than seeking perfection.:rolleyes:

    Deadlock Quartet:
    Methylfolate
    MethylB12
    AdenoB12 (Dibencozide); AKA AdoB12, adenosylcobalamin, dibencozide
    L-Carnitine Fumarate


    1) L-methylfolate, 200mcg 4 times a day, total 800mcg; Taken away from Potassium.

    30-60 minutes after Mfolate:

    2) Methyl B12 1mg + Adeno B12 a crumb from 10mg tablet, in pouch of gum line, so dissolves slowly over 1+hour

    3) Potassium: Start-up and each dosage increase will usually lead to symptoms including nausea, itching, heart palpitations, weakness, muscle spasms or cramps. Typically these symptoms will occur by the 3rd day after starting folate/B12. Try approx 300 mg K+ every 2 hours until deficiency symptoms relieved. You will likely need at least this much the following day. Symptoms may shift within hours.

    High doses of B1,2,3 can make this need for Potassium insatiable. 25mg or less of B complex/day, in a divided dose, is preferable.

    4) L-Carnitine Fumarate (for a smaller number of people, Acetyl-L Carnitine is effective)
    Dr’s Best 855mg capsule yields 500mg carnitine. 1 capsule/day.

    If you have anxiety and tend to over emphasize fears then you might consider microtitrating with the Jarrow Liquid carnitine (freebase). With that you might start at 150mcg a day whereas with the LCF maybe 64mg to start with (1/8 capsule)


    Brands and Dosages
    Enzymatic Therapy B12 infusion 1 mg sublingual
    Country Life Methyl B12 5mg sublingual
    Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex (AdenoB12) 10mg
    MethylFolate Several brands now in dosages from 400mcg to 5mg. For starting low and going slow, Solgar 800mcg tablets can be easily cut into 1/4s
    Drs. Best, Source Naturals L-Carnitine Fumarate 500mg
    Potassium gluconate powder is versatile form, rather than 99mg tablets. NOW brand

    When to Add things
  6. zzz

    zzz Senior Member

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    Yes, that's one of the more common side effects, although most people don't get any side effects. And for most people, 5000 mcg should be fine. But everyone's different. And as you may know, you can be taking a supplement or medicine for quite a while with no problems and then suddenly become sensitized to it. A rash is an allergic reaction, and you shouldn't continue any medication that is causing it.

    As for the brand, as you can see from Freddd's post, Jarrow is actually one of the best - much better than Source Naturals. Some people don't like Jarrow because it takes so long to dissolve. But that's the whole point - the tablets that dissolve faster can't be fully absorbed under the tongue, and so they go into your gut, where they're not absorbed very well at all.
  7. matters

    matters

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    I"m glad I could be your inspiration to dig in on the protocol ;)

    Ok, so If I"m reading right. it's about 1mg mb12 to 800 mcg mfolate.
    almost 1 to 1. actually about 80 percent. I was doing 5mg mb12 to 1.2 mg of mfolate for about 2 months..Only a 25 percent ratio of b12 to folate.I just recently crashed after 2 months of feeling pretty good.. I started adding yasko's protocol 1 month ago with the h12 and a12 and the methylmate drops which only gave a little mfolate bump..it was still a small amount, compared to what I was freestyling with on my own protocol. So, It appears I'm still very much short on the folate?. I know I'm out of balance now, because everything basically crashed. my body protested. I can see this now with heavy fur coating on the back of tongue..I was almost pink to the back of tongue and those stubborn cracks were filling in. I'm assuming the b12 was helping with that, Now i just feel out of sorts.. I was doing so much better before I added in the additional yasko protocol but that could just be coincidence since the dosages were quite small in comparison to what I was ingesting,. I think i've overdone the b12. If I reboot this thing and just do the minimums even at the proper ratios, i think it's going to take several months to "catch up" on folate

    I guess i'm kind of looking for a hack.. I know it's riskly but thinking about doing a 3 to 1 folate to b12 ratio for about a month (at the very least 2 to 1), and adding in the potassium at the levels you recommend.. After the month or feeling ok and tongue looking ok again,and libido, zest returning, follow the standard protocol you and freddd are suggesting.. thoughts on this? Also correct me if i'm wrong on the percentages/ratio's. I realize the a12 changes the ratio to more like 50percent of b12's to folate, but I don't even want to factor that in yet since it wasn't what I was megadosing on and it works more on cns.. yes? btw, i was taking l carnitine tartarate (will switch to fumarate) and 3 cataplex b's from standard process, with most meals, and a-f betafood for digestion /gallbladder and 3 tmg a few digestive enzymes and some butyrate to keep stomach acidic and soak up some elevated ammnonia,based on oats test, candida issues).. Been doing that for awhile and it was working, don't think it's what's thrown me off, considering most of those pills are natural food sources.. not synthetic.
    So much to unravel... appreciate you and/or any other veteran digging in with me. Sorry about your highs and lows, I'm with you on that my friend. I've been feeling so tired only a few hours after waking now. It's frustrating. Adrenals aren't that off, according to blood assessments. Assuming it's just general imbalance which I haven't helped much with the synthetics.


    ..
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
  8. matters

    matters

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    Thanks zzz, I'll go back to jarrow, I like them for everything.. but i made the switch because after about 2 weeks on my own protocol , 5000mcg and 1200 mfolate jarrow also, my blood looked real good under the microcope. i had never seen it look so small and robust. no donut holes.. but after the 2nd month on the protocol the blood looked so strange.. all the holes were back and the cells didn't look nearly as healthy, also some coagulation .. I know I made a wrong turn somewhere. Definite setback,
    All i can think now is too much b12 and not enough folate.. based on my ratios do you think this is why? Or is it some wildcard, like potassium deficiency i've created? Any other vits or minerals affected by the b12 folate protocol?
    I'm so not in the mood to chase my tail again, just to get back to baseline

    Yes, i've been on moratorium on EVERYTHING since the rash. But that' won't get me too far as things are not looking good, aside from the rash fading, digestion/bowels are getting sluggish and can tell i'm not really going forward. In fact, will probably continue to fade backward if I continue with a prolonged moratorium - been there before
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
  9. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    Freddd has changed his mind about Jarrow. About 2 and a half years ago something happened to the formula of Jarrow. Don't know what exactly, but it became drastically less effective. Fred had a horrible crash from it and no longer recommends it. Here is a small quote from him:


    There was an entire thread about this 2 years ago as others noticed the difference too: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/jarrow-did-it-change.18154/

    I just wanted to point this out. :)
    TheGrandWazoo and zzz like this.
  10. matters

    matters

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    Wonderful, another layer of confusion. The rabbit hole gets pretty deep and rather quickly :)
  11. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    From what I understand adb12 works in the Kreb's cycle so it doesn't work with methylfolate as that's in the methylation/folate cycles.

    I wouldn't worry so much about percentages. Fred has said over and over it not about percentages. It's about titrating to effect. You want to get to a point where you no longer have "brightening" as you've maxed out (for you) and no longer show paradoxical deficiency symptoms.
  12. matters

    matters

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    ok, Yea, i'm just going to retrace , with the knowledge that i was probably under folated.

    Also , didn't add in the potassium.. Which Vit depletes potassium? Is it the b12 or the folate?

    Also, some silly questions i can't find answers on.. What is "brightening" if you are referring to my rash, then it sure was a quite vibrant brightening effect;)

    Also, is Sam E the same as the adb12? Because based on my Organic Acid Test and imbalances, it kept pointing to supplementing with Sam E, carnitine and b2. Which i've done, and added the acl. I dont have any adb12 though, but would like to try because I'm hearing it's lifting libido, and that seems to be the one elusive thing in my life, that I miss so much. It's my drive to get things done, to work, to live.. all that. Sam E doesn't do anything for my libido unfortunately
  13. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    Potassium is pretty important I can't stress that one enough. If you have methylation going you'll feel the need for potassium.


    Well, your rash is definitely not "brightening." I'd look at the extra ingredients in your supplements to see if there might be something you're allergic to.

    I had to look up Fred explain brightening as that is his term. Here is what he had to say: In addition, the B12s start up neurological processes in damaged nerves. At it's simplest, there is an artifact of all sensory things brightening. One is more aware of light, color, hearing, taste, smelling, damaged nerves, pains, tight muscles, everything, as if new all over again and not fatigued into oblivion.

    I have to say that is what happened for me. I came out of the zombie like fog I didn't even know I was in. The fog had happened over such a prolonged period of time I didn't realize the changes. It wasn't until I was lifted out that I could look back see the darkness. It was quite a difference.



    Sam-e is S-Adenosyl Methionine and Adb12 is Adenosylcobalamin. Two very different things and working in two different areas. Sam-e works on the methylation cycle and Ad12 on the Krebs cycle.
  14. matters

    matters

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    Thanks Phred.. appreciate your time.. I'm going to order the ado12 then and just start over on freds protocol, and add things slowly. I had some flashes of fog lifting,libido , life, but it all came crashing down so quick.Even my bowels changed from brown to bright green,

    something shifted this last week.. I'm so dead now. I look at all my supplements, protocols, everything and just want go shove them in a cupboard.. Have no solid clue what went wrong and Feels like a year of trial and error has just ended in error. It takes alot of energy and research to embark on the journey. Going to have to try and summon the energy with some hope and faith that I wont make too many wrong turns.
  15. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @matters I'm sorry you're feeling so low. You'll find the guide I compiled as pdf in my signature. Not perfect, not definitive, but you might be able to scroll through and find some of your answers there. I'm unable to pick through what you've done and determine the blocks. But this might help you do it for yourself.

    ahhh..I've just looked again at your initial question and your genes. Your MAO++ predisposes you to histamine response: rashes and more. I'm linking a few histamine resources you might find helpful.

    Also, 2 administrative things: If you put your genetic profile into your signature, then we see it on each of your posts, can refer to it for responses. And, it's really helpful if you break your posts into smaller paragraphs, much easier to comprehend the info. thanks.

    http://roosclues.blogspot.com.au/2010/03/overview-of-high-histamine-also-called.html

    The Many Faces of Histamine Intolerance http://healthypixels.com/?p=1044
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2014

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