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Lipkin finds biomarkers not bugs

Discussion in 'Phoenix Rising Articles' started by Firestormm, Sep 12, 2013.

  1. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    He has stated they havent even tested serology and they think they will find some answers there, so infections are still definately in.
     
    Simon likes this.
  2. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member

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    Viruses may well set up the conditions for such feedback loops, such that the loops continue after the viral infection has resolved. But I don't see why the idea of an autoimmune disorder in the absence of a chronic infection is such a controversial issue.
     
    snowathlete likes this.
  3. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    I'm confused, was TNF-alpha decreased or increased?
     
  4. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member

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    Wait, this Glenn Hutchins?

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyl...nn-hutchins/tmpyyjAZoYgjzAuUsKnGCO/story.html

    So when Ian Lipkin says we need to tell the government to allocate additional funds to the CDC and NIH, who is he really talking to? The guy who funded his study, the guy who plays golf with Obama, or us?
     
    vli likes this.
  5. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    What if the infection is in the tissues not blood? Like, say, borrelia or enteroviruses?
     
    vli likes this.
  6. Omar88

    Omar88 Senior Member

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    Both but a rich, good connection man with a patient sun will help us a lot !!
     
  7. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    There must be a reason for the immune system to attack self.
     
  8. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    Those symptoms might not be herpes though, they aren't specific. Of course if you've tested positive then perhaps it is. My point was really not to argue against herpes infection though, it was to point out that secondary infection as a result of a broad immunodeficiency is unlikely, else we'd have a plethora of infections, some with very specific, easily identifiable symptoms.

    I agree. And there has to be explaination for these immune characteristics from both sets of people. I don't think a broad immunodeficiency at any stage of illness is it though, else we'd be dying more and getting those obvious symptoms from some infections. If we are more prone to certain infections as a result our our immune dysfunction then perhaps infections such as herpes which can embed in our DNA are better placed to take advantage than other infections.

    Sure, but for the purpose of discussion and given our - well, certainty my - lack of detailed immune system knowledge, it's still useful to talk in such terms I think - particularly when talking in net terms as I was.
     
  9. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

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    I don't think it's as simple as that. There are certainly people with severe immune deficiencies who are susceptible to everything -- think the "bubble boy" disorder. But if only part of the immune system is deficient, the person could be susceptible to a limited subset of pathogens, for example intracellular or extracellular pathogens. Also, a limited immune deficiency leaves the victim less able, but not completely unable to fight off infections.

    HIV patients get different secondary infections at different stages of the illness because their immune systems can handle some infections early, but as the disease progresses their immune systems become more incapable and they get more and more infections. We could easily be in a analogous position to HIV patients in the earlier stages -- more susceptible to reactivations of herpesviruses, bacterial pneumonia, staph infections, candida, malaria, TB, but not so severely impaired that we suffer from every infection that comes our way.
     
  10. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    On the one hand it is claimed attack on self for no resean.

    On the other hand it was claimed no immune response what so ever to the infection I suspect. That has changed over the years. It is now know, there are immune responses but they do not show in the useal manner.
     
  11. Antares in NYC

    Antares in NYC Senior Member

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    Hi Dolche,

    Have you tried Dr. Shoemaker's protocol? Do you know of anyone getting better on it?
    Any ME/CFS patients that found relief with the Shoemaker protocol?
    I'm really curious.
     
  12. Forbin

    Forbin Forbin

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    I wonder if it makes sense to distinguish between “colds” and “flu.” From a symptom standpoint, influenza is more likely to involve the presence of significant fever in adults. Colds are more likely to commence with a sore throat and to involve a runny and/or stuffed up nose. Colds are generally milder than the flu.

    All influenza is caused by RNA viruses of the family Orthomyxoviridae, but apparently only 10%-15% of colds are attributed to these viruses. Some 200 other viruses can cause colds.

    In other words, if you were somehow very resistant to flu viruses you could still get colds, since 85%-90% of them are not caused by flu viruses.

    I don’t know if such selective resistance is possible, but it would be interesting to know if CFS patients who get colds also get the flu with high fever.


    [FWIW, my illness apparently commenced with a severe flu, but that was the last time I caught the flu (or a cold) for a decade.]
     
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  13. rosie26

    rosie26 Senior Member

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    Forbin

    I know it may sound strange but I have never had a flu with body aches and fever in my life that I can remember until I collapsed with ME. I get heaps of colds. Anyone else never had flu until ME. ?
     
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  14. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    I hate to sound deragotory towards some of the viral testing and I'm seriously calling BS on some of it. I don't think you can test 225 or so people with cfs/me and only come up with 4 cases of EBV and a 2 cases of HHV-6. Whether they were looking a antibody test or viral dna I'm still concerned. It's known that copy numbers for HHV-6 are very low as they just kick the shit out of you when they come rolling through. The study just a few weeks ago showing EBV is now leaving a viral copy within the host cell while it is sends a complete new copy of the virus out to infect a new cell leaving the old alive and well and still infected.

    One thing that sticks out at me from the research standpoint are they using this stud to bolster their new arrays that can see 500 different viruses utilizing a high throughput system. The research should find, or at least look at the pathogens and viruses instead from a researcher perspective.

    Many of these samples are 4 years old from Dr. Montoya and I imagine Dr. Peterson as well. How many times have they been thawed and re-frozen and thawed again. I'm not doubting the arrays they are using, but is this the place to be using them. As I said before I don't think a 500 virus array in a high throughput system will find HHV-6 on a very consistant basis. I'm sorry, but I find it very, very hard to believe we as patients have such high levels of EBV and HHV6 antibodies checked in a research lab for HHV-6 anyway, but they can only find four cases on their super 500 virus array on a high throughput system.

    Are they looking for a cure for cfs/me or are they testing their newly develop arrays? I'm confused to say the least and not trying second guess the researchers intentions, but something don't freaking add up and I would like to know why?

    Who was it that recently stated that if you look to quick it is going to get missed. It was a reference on this forum by a doctor. I hope they find something that will slow them do.
     
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  15. Rachael

    Rachael

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    Those who are complaining about persistant colds and flues since they developed ME/CFS ... are you sure that you have an infection, or are you having a reaction? Are you immune-suppressed or immune-reactive? As a long time sufferer of ME/CFS, I use to think that my symptoms, when I became extremely ill were because I had a virus or an infection (a down-regulated immune system). It was not until I began reading stories at a child daycare (germ factory), a couple of hours a day, that I realized, when I became very ill, it was not an infection or virus causing my symptoms, but that I was having a reaction (caused by an up-regulated immune system). I would become terribly congested; have a low-grade fever; sore throat; cough; suffer from headaches and extreme fatigue. By the end of the “work-week” I would feel so sick, that I use to think I had caught something from the children. The same thing would happen week, after week, but I would miraculously recover over the weekend. Eventually, I had to give up the position. As soon as I did, my problems with what I first thought was a virus or infection disappeared. I still have ME/CFS, but I am now quite aware when my symptoms become worse, I am reacting to something. I do not have a down-regulated immune system, but an up-regulated one. This knowledge has helped me to cope a with my illness.
     
    Wayne likes this.
  16. Bob

    Bob

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    Lipkin looked in plasma and spinal fluid, but the literature that I've just looked at suggests that HHV-6 would be better detected in lymphocytes or brain tissue:
    This study, that found HHV-6 in 70% of CFS patients, detected it in lymphocytes, not plasma:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1309285

    Other research has suggested that HHV-6 is found in large numbers of the general population:
     
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  17. Firestormm

    Firestormm Guest

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    Bob just to save me reading those papers - were they active infections that were found? Only that's what Lippers was a seeking in this first instance.
     
  18. Bob

    Bob

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    I think so, but it's only one study, and there has been plenty of conflicting HHV-6 research.
    I'm not familiar with the wide range of HHV-6 research, as I've never taken a close interest in it.

    Here's the results from the abstract, suggesting active infection:
     
    Valentijn likes this.
  19. Marco

    Marco Old blackguard

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    High leptin levels may be a cause for minor celebration?

    Things could be worse without leptin's neuroprotective effects :

    Leptin Neuroprotection in the Central Nervous System: Mechanisms and Therapeutic Potentials

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2634657/
     
  20. Simon

    Simon

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    Let me clarify a few points:
    He says nothing in the transcript about using a 500-virus-detecting array. They screened uisng a panel of 20 viruses, bacteria and parasites. The high throughput approach, as I understand it, is unbiased ie looks for any virus based on the DNA/RNA sequence. However, Ian Lipkin did say his team had discovered over 500 viruses using this method (and you can't discover a new virus using a panel of known ones). The purpose of this stuy was not to test an array.

    Would be interesting to know if this had happened, or if the researchers had factored this in. I think that DNA viruses like herpes are fairly robust so would survive freezing/thawing cycles - a bigger risk is probably introducing contaminants and finding false positives.

    So far they have only reported on plasma viral studies, which will only detect viruses that are currently active. If people have dormant HHV6 and EBV (and EBV at least is prevalent but generally dormant), they won't find it in plasma. They have yet to report on the serology studies that should show up antibodies if the patient has a prior (or dormant) infection.

    I note Bob study below that found high levels of HHV6 using cultured lymphocytes (rather than plasma) - but it was from 1992 and wonder if there have been a replication since? Still, it was a pretty big study.

    It's quite possible that the serology work will find antibodies indicating past/dormant EBV and HHV6 infections. And I agree that it would be odd if they don't find EBV at least.

    One final point. The virology work is a collaboration with Jose Montoya, an expert in HHV6 currently running a CFS pilot study treating HHV6. My guess is that Montoya would know how to detect HHV6. But maybe when the paper is published (should be soon) there will be lots of caveats about the limits of the techniques they used.
     
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