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Inquiry about Methylation and Mental Health Issues

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by francesbe, Jul 23, 2014.

  1. francesbe

    francesbe

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    Hello all,

    I am new to the world of methylation and am seeking guidance understanding the implications of my methylation mutation profile posted here, as it relates to mental health issues.

    Thank you in advance,
    B.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    @francesbe I don't have the wherewithal to comment on your profile specifically. but I can tell you that I've had excellent results in eliminating my anxiety symptoms, insomnia, mood swings, bringing a level of calm to my life that I'd thought impossible. As I increased B12/folate, the insomnia resolved and calm became my norm.

    I started w/ diet, eliminating gluten and dairy, going high fat. You might need to be low sulfur, as Sterling would have indicated. I've also needed to eliminate histamines. Adding low dose lithium orotate stabilized my mood swings. Correcting for other mineral imbalances, especially for pyroluria, greatly affected my mental state. And detox provided incremental shifts in both my physical and mental symptoms, eventually de-stressing my adrenals.

    As you'll no doubt have read elsewhere, it's a marathon, not a sprint. Perseverance furthers. You're at the right place for ongoing advice and support.

    Linking a questionnaire re pyroluria, which could help w/ specific supps.
    http://www.hputest.nl/evraag.htm Online questionnaire to suspect pyroluria
     
  3. francesbe

    francesbe

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    Thank you ahmo. I'm already gluten free (mostly), but still consuming dairy. Otherwise your recommendations are in line with the plan I've formulate for myself thus far. I've started taking l-methylfolate and I should have my hydroxy B12 and lithium orotate tomorrow. What lithium orotate dose are you taking?
     
  4. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    I started out at 1/2 of a 10mg cap. Interestingly, after a long period of detox, most of my other mineral needs < (I dose by self-testing). but Li has >. It seems, according to comments on these threads, that it helps w/ B12 absorption. I'm currently using 5mg AM/PM.

    I've just been compiling some of Freddd's most recent comments re hydroxyB12. You can see more in the guide attached to my signature. I know others recommend it. It never helped me, and here are a few of Fred's comments.

     
  5. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Arizona, USA
    @francesbe , Hi B.!

    Mental health issues are most commonly associated with your MTHFR A1298C GG +/+ SNP. The MTHFR enzyme catalyzes (facilitates) a reversible reaction. While those with the C677T SNP have trouble turning folinic acid into methyl folate, those with the A1298C SNP have trouble turning methyl folate into folinic acid. These are sometimes called forward and reverse reactions, respectively. Although it's somewhat of an oversimplification, I think of these things as trying to maintain equilibrium. If you add more of one, it makes more of the other.

    The mental health issues are not caused by the levels of methylfolate or folinic acid, but by what happens to another chemical, biopterin, when the reaction takes place. The two forms of biopterin are dihydrobiopterin (BH2) and tetrahydrobiopterin (BH4). BH4 is the "active" form used to make neurotransmitters, and a shortage of BH4 is associated with mental health issues: anxiety, depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, autism, OCD, ADHD, to name a few. (Plus other issues: irritable bowel, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, dementia, Parkinson's, migraines.) There are undoubtedly other mechanisms at work in these diseases, but some people, like @ahmo , fortunately find that supplements that favor creation of BH4 help relieve some of the mental health issues.

    By now you might have guessed that it's the "backward reaction", the one that turns methylfolate into folinic acid and is impeded (slowed down) by having the A1298C SNP, that makes BH4. I think of it this way:

    methylfolate + BH2 ---> folinic acid + BH4 (facilitated by MTHFR enzyme, slowed down by A1298C SNP)

    So, by supplementing methylfolate, you force the reaction to make more BH4. More BH4 means more serotonin and dopamine. As you may know, serotonin and dopamine are important in themselves, but they also get turned into all kinds of other neurotransmitters, although the only one that comes to mind right now is melatonin.

    A word of caution: in messing with your neurotransmitters, some people find that they can overdo it easily. The watch-phrase here is "Start low and go slow", meaning start with a tiny dose and increase gradually. If you start getting drastic mood swings or go too far one way or the other, time to start over and see if something else needs to be taken into consideration. And if your face/scalp starts breaking out, or there are other (different) symptoms, look up "deadlock quartet" and "paradoxical folate deficiency" - it usually means you've started healing and your body is demanding more methylfolate, not less. (This is not scientifically proven, but seems a common experience among the people on this site, including me.)

    Methylfolate is available for mental health issues in prescription strengths of 7.5 and 15 mg, and over the counter in 400 mcg, 800 mcg, and 1 mg strengths. Solgar seems to be the brand preferred by many people on this forum, and it's what I use.

    I usually use 1 mg/day, but can tolerate several mg/day. After using it for a couple of months, I needed more for a while. And when I didn't have any for a week, my face broke out, and now I'm back to 2 mg for a couple of weeks. Personally, I also have to supplement tryptophan, which is the precursor to serotonin (but not tyrosine, which is the precursor to dopamine - go figure!). Serum amino acid tests showed that my tryptophan went to half of low-normal when I started supplementing methylfolate. (It stayed low, even when I took 500 mg of tryptophan, so now I take 1500 mg.) I think this is valuable information, so I am glad I had the amino acid test before and during supplementation.

    So, this is what I think I know. Hope you find it useful.
    Crit
     
    horcrux likes this.
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City

    Hi Francesbe,

    I know of no reliable "methylation mutation profile" that will tell you what you want to know. However, deficiencies of the CSF/CNS of Methylcobalamin, Adenosylcobalamin, L-methylfolate and L-carnitine fumarate specifically can cause depression (I had lifelong depression that started relieving with the first dose of Methylcobalamin), anxiety, panic, fear, paranoia, paranoid psychosis, OCD, rage, homicidal rage, anger, rapidly shifting emotions, multi sensory hallucinations, "Parkinson's personality", psychosis ("the most florid psychosis known to mankind"), dementia, cognitive deficits of all kinds and just about every kind of personality changes and mood problems can be caused by these deficiencies or the damage done by these deficiencies.. These can be a combination of functional lack as well as neurological damage. These are all neuro psychological problems. Whether you want to consider these issues of mental health or not is a matter of definition.

    There are no symptoms from HyCbl deficiency. There are no HyCbl deficiencies. The body has no need for HyCbl. There are a few functions that HyCbl can perform, but usually not as well as MeCbl and/or AdoCbl. There are a couple of hundred possible MeCbl and AdoCbl deficiencies neuropsyc symptoms. They are BOTH required to correct the functional symptoms as well as partially correcting damage from long term deficiencies. HyCbl which is at best effective for some partial body effectiveness (reducing MCV) has almost no neurological effectiveness but it can increase the biochemical problems leading to neuropsyc symptoms.

    There was just a study published that linked gene variations to Schizophrenia. "The scientists identified about 128 independent genetic variants at 108 locations on the human chromosomes that contribute significantly to susceptibility to schizophrenia – 83 of these sites have never before been linked to the illness, the scientists said."
    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...through-points-at-over-100-genes-9619638.html

    This list is a general list of the symptoms that respond to the specified nutrients. It is not a detailed list of neuropsyc symptoms so much detail may be missing.

    SYMPTOMS LIST

    In this post this is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experiences of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients.

    These symptoms responded almost entirely or entirely with basics 5 star MeCbl – methylcobalamin – Methylb12 - Mb12 - Mecobl . Many started improving in hours. Others took 9 months to correct.

    morning joint stiffness and pain
    paleness
    acid reflux
    nausea
    daily vomiting
    standing with eyes closed, lose balance
    hands feel gloved with loss of sensitivity - glove anesthesia
    feet feel socked by loss of sensitivity - stocking anesthesia
    glove and stocking anesthesia
    neuropathic bladder
    unable to release bladder, mild to severe
    unable to fully empty the bladder
    fecal incontinence - occasionally to frequently
    diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
    tinnitus - ringing in ears
    always feeling cold
    intolerance to loud sounds
    intolerance to multiple sounds
    sleep disorders
    non restorative sleep
    Night terrors
    Prolonged hypnagogic or hypnopompic states transitioning to/from sleep
    Sleep paralysis
    alteration of touch all over body, normal touch can be unpleasant and painful
    alterations and loss of taste
    taste hallucinations
    smell hallucinations
    sound hallucinations
    visual hallucinations
    alterations and loss of smell
    loss of smell and taste of strawberries specifically
    loss or alteration of smell and taste of potato chips specifically
    roughening and increased raspiness of voice, mb12 can smooth in mid word
    blurring of vision - can be sudden onset and sudden return
    Visual impairment can be seen; ophthalmological exam may show bilateral visual loss
    optic atrophy
    centrocecal scotomata
    hypersensitivity/intolerance to bright light
    intolerance to loud sounds
    intolerance to multiple sounds
    burning muscle pain
    diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
    tinnitus - ringing in ears
    sore burning tongue

    This is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients.

    These symptoms responded strongly first to 5 star MeCbl and then Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.

    Bursitis
    stomach not emptying
    frequent vomiting
    acid regurgitation
    dyspepsia
    flatulence
    altered bowel habits
    abdominal pain
    loss of appetite for meat, fish, eggs, dairy, the only b12 containing foods
    nutrient specific anorexia
    intermittent constipation
    intermittent diarrhea
    irritable bowel syndrome
    sores, ulcers and lesions along entire GI tract or any part
    anorexia
    Bulimia
    Hypersensitivity to touch
    Hypersensitivity to odors
    Hypersensitivity to tastes
    Hypersensitivity to clothing texture
    Hypersensitivity to body malfunctions, symptoms
    Hypersensitivity to sounds and noises
    Hypersensitivity to light and visual stimuli
    Hypersensitivity to blood sugar changes
    Hypersensitivity to internal metabolic changes
    Hypersensitivity to temperature changes
    burning bladder (no UTI)
    painful urgency (no UTI)
    burning urethra (no UTI)
    Low blood serum level - below 550pg/ml, Japanese Standard
    elevated MCH (Mean Corpuscular Hemoglobin)
    elevated LDH
    big fat red cells (when said this way usually with happy or healthy modifying it completely misinterpreting results of MCV
    platelet dysfunction, low count
    white cell changes, low count
    hyper segmented neutrophils
    headaches
    inflamed epithelial tissues - mucous membranes, skin, GI, vaginal, lungs
    inflamed endothelial tissues - lining of veins and arteries
    mucous becomes thick, jellied and sticky
    asthma
    chronic cough that mimics asthma but isn't
    chronic sinus congestion
    dermatitis herpetiformis, chronic intensely burning itching rash
    frequent infected follicles or acne type lesions all over body
    chronic infections, many varieties possible
    Seborrhic dermatitis
    dandruff
    eczema
    dermatitis
    skin on face, hands, feet, turns brown or yellow if anemia occurs
    poor hair condition
    thin nails
    transverse ridges on nails, can happen as healing starts
    mouth sensitive to hot and cold
    sore burning tongue
    beef-red tongue, possibly smoother than normal
    sore mouth, no infection or apparant reason
    teeth sensitive to hot and cold
    canker sores


    with p5p added

    Elevated blood serum Hcy, borderline or higher


    These symptoms responded relatively partially first to 5 star MeCbl and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.




    splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis
    impaired white blood cell response
    poor resistance to infections
    easy bruising
    pronounced anemia
    macrocytic anemia
    megablastic anemia
    pernicious anemia
    decreased blood clotting
    MCV > 93 first warning,
    MCV > 97 alert
    MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
    MCV > 105 urgently needs treatment, severe problem

    Plus Vitamin E
    Child with neural tube defects

    mother of child with neural tube defect

    These symptoms responded not at all first to 5 star and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.


    lack of dreaming
    MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
    macrocytic anemia
    metallic taste in mouth
    Widespread body & muscle pain responding to NSAID
    Joint pain responding to NSAIDS
    splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis


    Sexual related symptoms, both men and women – These responded with the most response to lesser responses in order to MeCbl, Metafolin (l-methylfolate), AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate

    reduced libido - loss of sexual desire
    loss of orgasmic intensity
    unsatisfying orgasms
    inability to orgasm
    loss and/or change of genital sensations
    burning genital skin sensation
    unable to feel aroused
    numb genital skin
    low sex hormones

    MEN

    In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
    low testosterone men

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
    erectile disfunction men

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
    low sperm count
    poor sperm motility
    Poor sperm quality
    no sperm


    WOMEN

    In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
    low testosterone
    low estrogen

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
    post partum depression
    post partum psychosis

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
    Frequent miscarriage

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin
    False positive pap smears, defective cells
    menstrual symptoms


    Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/04/13, Version 1.1

    Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.

    1. Initially – Mecbl

    2. +5 months 400mcg SAM-E

    3. + 4 months AdoCbl

    4. + 3 months titrate +50mg zinc

    5. +4 years 400mcg Metafolin

    6. +1 year LCF

    7. + 1 month TMG 1000mg/day

    8. 30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,

    9. +0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg

    10. + 4 years remove TMG

    11. +6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg

    12. Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.



    These symptoms are what responded very well to CNS penetrating doses of MeCbl either as 50mg sublingual single 4-5 hour dose or 4 x 7.5mg or 3 x 10mg or for some 2 x 15mg subcutaneous MeCbl injections. Metafolin in some way enhances retention of AdoCbl and MeCbl with excretion visibly decreased. A sublingual dose of 1-2 tablets each hour added for 12 hours appears to generate substantial CNS penetration as well.



    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils


    Elevated CSF Hcy
    Low CSF cobalamin
    limbs feel stiff
    Drowsy


    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl
    dimmed vision - usually not noticed going into it because change can be very slow or present for life
    Clumsiness


    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl - Metafolin


    Slow to adapt to night vision


    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – LCF


    Difficulty in word finding



    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils


    Brainstem or cerebellar signs or even reversible (with mb12) coma may occur
    demyelinated areas on nerves
    subacute combined degeneration
    axonal degeneration of spinal cord
    unsteadiness of gait
    ataxic gait, particularly in dark
    positive Romberg
    positive Lhermittes
    Loss of motor control over some or all of toes
    Loss of motor control over part or all of feet
    Loss of sense of joint position
    sudden electric like shocks/pains shooting down arms, body, legs shooting down from neck movement
    sudden "ice pick" pain
    decreased reflexes
    brisk reflexes
    Foot Drop
    tripping over toes
    injuring toes catching top of toes on floor
    general feeling of weakness


    Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/04/13 Version 1.1

    Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.

    1. Initially – Mecbl

    2. +5 months 400mcg SAM-E

    3. + 4 months AdoCbl

    4. + 3 months titrate +50mg zinc

    5. +4 years 400mcg Metafolin

    6. +1 year LCF

    7. + 1 month TMG 1000mg/day

    8. 30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,

    9. +0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg

    10. + 4 years remove TMG

    11. +6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg

    12. Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.


    These symptoms are what responded very well to L-carnitine fumarate AND AdoCbl for the first two items


    L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – Metafolin - MeCbl


    weight loss involuntary
    muscular atrophy
    exercise does not build muscle



    L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin – AdoCbl - MeCbl

    weight gain, watery fat
    edema


    L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – MeCbl – Metafolin


    mild to extremely severe fatigue
    continuous extremely severe fatigue
    easy fatigability
    severe abnormal muscle fatigue up to and including apparent paralysis leading to death
    weakness
    muscle pain especially around attachment points to bones
    Eighteen severely tender muscle spots of FMS



    AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate


    exercise debilitates for up to a week, making things much worse
    accumulating muscle pains following exertion
    sore muscles throughout body
    lack of muscle recovery after exercise
    High urinary MMA



    AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin

    congestive heart failure
    Elevated CSF MMA
    Elevated uMMA


    Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/05/13, Version 1.1

    Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.

    1. Initially – Mecbl

    2. +5 months 400mcg SAM-E

    3. + 4 months AdoCbl

    4. + 3 months titrate +50mg zinc

    5. +4 years 400mcg Metafolin

    6. +1 year LCF

    7. + 1 month TMG 1000mg/day

    8. 30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,

    9. +0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg

    10. + 4 years remove TMG

    11. +6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg

    12. Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.





    MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin

    shortness of breath, oxygen hunger
    heart palpitations


    MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate

    extremely sore neck muscles reversing normal curvature of neck
    painfully tight, stiff muscles, especially legs and arms
    frequent muscle spasms anywhere in body
    weak pulse



    MeCbl - AdoCbl

    Confusion
    Disorientation
    Difficulty in word finding


    MeCbl - AdoCbl - Metafolin

    irritable
    depression
    SAD - Seasonal Affective Disorder
    mental slowing
    personality changes
    chronic malaise
    poor concentration
    moodiness
    tiredness
    mood swings
    memory loss
    listlessness
    impaired connection to others
    mentally fuzzy, foggy, brainfog
    dizziness - even unable to walk
    Vertigo


    MeCbl – Metafolin – AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate

    psychosis, including many of the most florid psychoses seen in literature, megaloblastic madness
    Alzheimer's
    delirium
    dementia
    paranoia
    delusions
    hallucinations - multisensory
    anxiety or tension
    nervousness
    mania
    Widespread pain throughout body



    A caution, those with anxiety and panic symptoms may respond with extreme moods of increased fear, anxiety, panic, anger rage, homicidal rage and profound depression, usually in repeatable sequences following LCF or ALCAR even at levels of 1mg oral. A micro titration of carnitine would be cautious. While most find the moods intolerable, certain persons have been able to tolerate these (both past) and current, to find they can fade after some months of consumption. A few people may find similar, maybe somewhat lesser, response to MeCbl or more likely AdoCbl. As these are less controllable than LCF which can be micro dosed, they should be considered first.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
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