Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
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increase in endotoxin after intense exercise

Discussion in 'Lyme Disease and Co-Infections' started by msf, Jun 25, 2015.

  1. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    I think I may have just stumbled across another piece of the puzzle.

    I was looking up the effects of Vitamin C on bacterial infections, and I found this:

    'Intense or endurance exercise produces a concentration of endotoxin in the blood similar to that found in patients with sepsis. Oral ascorbate pretreatment of as little as 1 gram has been demonstrated to completely block the increase in circulating endotoxin and nitrite typically found during and after intense exercise30. It appears from this study that oral vitamin C prevents endotoxin translocation from the gut.'

    It was in this excellent summary of Vitamin C and endotoxin: http://www.vitaminc.co.nz/pdf/ENDOTOXIN-AND-VITAMIN-C.pdf, but the finding is from this paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12885590

    It seems to me that if this occurs in healthy volunteers, it is likely to occur to much greater extent in ME patients with leaky guts. It also seems to suggest that taking Vitamin C might have some effect on the severity of the PEM episode. If healthy volunteers need 1000mg though, it seems quite likely that ME patients would need more than this.

    If anyone has access to the full paper I would love to know more about it.
     
  2. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    I haven't had time to read into it properly yet, but it seems that LPS induces leptin release.
     
  3. Research 1st

    Research 1st Severe ME, POTS & MCAS.

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    There's a forum blog post by MESci on Endotoxins here:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?entries/is-pem-due-to-bacterial-endotoxins.1579/

    As for the published science, there doesn't seem to be much for 'CFS'.
    This is available though:

    'Raised serum concentrations of IgA and IgM to lipopolysaccharide (LPS) of gram-negative enterobacteria, such as Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Morganella morganii, Proteus mirabilis, Pseduomonas putida, Citrobacter koseri, and Klebsiella pneumoniae have been reported in CFS patients'.

    Source: Lakhan & Kirchgessner, 2010
    http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/7/1/79

    citing: Komaroff et al '91 & '96


    Plus:


    'There is now evidence that chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is accompanied by an increased translocation of endotoxins from gram-negative enterobacteria through the gut wall, as demonstrated by increased prevalences and median values for serum IgM and IgA against the endotoxins of gram-negative enterobacteria.'

    Source: Maes et al - 2007
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18063928


    MSF, it's most interesting you mention that LPS can elevate Leptin, as if Leptin can be proven in 'most' ME patients to be way up, this may gravitate towards the possibility they have a Lyme like condition associated to a bacterial infection, such as Bartonella.

    Also I think if i remember correctly, Leptin lowers Growth Hormone (GH) and we know
    from one small study at least, that 'CFS' patients had significantly lowered levels of GH.
     
    rosie26 likes this.
  4. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Ventura, CA
    supposedly intense exercise can kill endotoxic bacteria, and get it out of the system. Perhaps a rise in endotoxins in the lymph system, as the body fights it off could be responsible.
     
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  5. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Thanks Research1st, the good thing about Phoenix Rising is that someone has always already discussed whatever you propose before, and in more detail than you!
     
  6. rosie26

    rosie26 Senior Member

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  7. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    There is a post here listing supplements that ME/CFS patients have found reduce PEM. Vitamin C is not among them, but it's worth trying high dose vitamin C to see what beneficial effects it may have on PEM.
     
    rosie26 likes this.
  8. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    rosie26 likes this.
  9. anciendaze

    anciendaze Senior Member

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    I happen to take about 1 gram of vitamin C daily, and believe this reduces the number and severity of crashes I experience. This is purely a personal thing, and I have no idea which other people might benefit from this.

    There is one caution I want to emphasize: when you take mega doses of vitamin C your body adjusts to these levels; you can experience symptoms of scurvy if you do not maintain consistent levels. Suddenly stopping because your supply ran out, and you can't get to a store, can trigger a range of problems.

    Overdosing: If excess vitamin C is detectable in urine, or you start having bowel problems, you are overdoing the supplement. There are test strips for urine. Vitamin C has very low toxicity so this is not immediately dangerous, but you do not want to make your kidneys work overtime simply to remove a chemical which is not doing you any good.
     
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  10. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Rebel without a biscuit

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    That is a very useful piece of information. I take between 500--1000mg over the day by adding C powder to water.
    It can so easily happen (running out of supplement) but also there are times when I am just to ill or sleeping a lot and the supplementing stops. So what would you qualify as a mega dose?
     
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  11. anciendaze

    anciendaze Senior Member

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    I wouldn't try to draw a sharp line, but it you are taking 10 times the officially recommended dose you can be certain your body will adjust to this higher level. Stopping won't plunge you into severe scurvy in your case, but it can make the problems which caused you to take vitamin C worse. You definitely do not want to cut back on intake at the same time you are ill.

    In animals which manufacture vitamin C in their own bodies, the levels they produce rise in response to physiological stress like illness.

    I recommend keeping a second batch of vitamin C hidden until you run out of the first. This gives you longer to get to a store and replenish your supplies.
     
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  12. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Rebel without a biscuit

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    Thanks for responding. I think I'll try to ensure I have some 500mg caps around so that if mixing the powder is just too much I might manage the caps.
     
  13. msf

    msf Senior Member

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