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I have CBS and need help with a low sulfur diet

Discussion in 'Genetic Testing and SNPs' started by freshveggies, Jul 18, 2012.

  1. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

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    Hi, Does anyone else have the CBS defect and on a low sulfur diet. I get confusing information on the interest about what I can and cannot eat.

    Thanks
     
  2. Nielk

    Nielk

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    What is CBS defect?
     
  3. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

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    HI, I am just learning, but it is a snip from the methylation cycle. Mine is CBS C699T +/-
     
  4. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    There is a new Zealand site that I've seen along the way. It talks about Cutler's sulfur theory and specifically thiol sulfurs. I'd do a web search and it should pop up with a good article and list. Yasko only says limited instead of no sulfur unless you have a full CBS like I do. I limit them but still eat cruciferous veggies based on my nutrigenomics specialist's guidance.
     
  5. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

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  6. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    I have 2 CBS +/+ and I eat high sulfur (eggs every day, broccoli, garlic). test your homocysteine. Epigenetics trump genes. I do not eat high protein however. I am good with 80g protein (serum ammonia test to determine) but I seldom actually get that much.
     
    Dreambirdie likes this.
  7. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    triffid113 LOTS of questions.

    Why test homocysteine?
    How are you applying epigenetics to your CBS +/+ ?
    Who runs the serum ammonia test?
    How do you determine how much protein you need?
    And is the protein you eat all from animal sources?

    caledonia This might be of interest to you too.
     
  8. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    I don't think anyone really argues against epigenetics as an important player in all of this but the combo is telling. I asked my doc about this issue long ago and she said she had yet to find anyone with a fairly clean methylation panel having unexplained disease (leading one to believe that epigenetics or outside influences is the sole contributing factor). I'd caution you to avoid getting into the all or nothing category that so many others seem to do. For many researchers in the field of epigenetics, they are both equally important issues. DNA is no longer considered your destiny and this is where epigenetics factors in hugely for sure.

    i'm not sure about what all of your defects are but the serum ammonia also depends on the BHMT, MTHFR A1298c and the NOS so it will spike at different times and is therefore hard to test for in just a random blood or urine test. My doc tested both fairly consistently for a month since I have a full defect there too and many times my levels were fine soon after eating alotta meat only to find they spiked up several days to a week afterward. I think everyone will be different on this depending on their defects and toxic load but then, I'm not stating anything new here since Yasko has said that all along. The tricky thing is that people get fixated on some of the tenets Yasko lays out and nothing is that all or nothing. She emphasizes that repeatedly. She also talks about how the high sulfur cruciferous vegs increase detox through the NAT 1 & 2 detoxification pathway so this can be helpful as well and doesn't suggest getting rid of anything like that entirely, just watching it closely with the CBS and SUOX combo. Its really just considered a bigger problem in those who have the SUOX, which I don't have, thank goodness!

    I also believe that other nutritional supports can make a huge difference on this but I choose not to eat high protein more for my nervous system dominance then the CBS factor, though it might be nice to study for correlations between those who are sympathetic dominants and have the CBS defects, especially the full CBS 699T. But thats another subject.
     
    merylg likes this.
  9. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Hi everyone. This is my first post on the forum.

    I am 35 years old, and felt perfectly healthy until I took the time to analyze my 23andme.com data for Methylation defects for no other reason than the fact that I had a bad reaction to Metafolin and B-12. Sure enough, some issues popped up:

    [​IMG]
    (My 23andme results are not on the latest chip, but I have paid for the V3-chip upgrade and should get updated results soon.)

    and then I analyzed my wife's 23andme.com data (hers is on the V3-chip) and we got the following...

    [​IMG]

    I'm not an expert in genomics, but I'm awfully confused now. It seems our child has inherited some of these issues as well.

    My wife and I had been eating an ancestral Paleo/Primal/WAPF ketogenic diet (high-fat, grass-fed meat, farm fresh vegetables, low-carbohydrate diet) for the past nine months and absolutely felt great on it. We'd eat perhaps 1/2 pound of meat each day and 2 to 3 pasture-raised eggs and plenty of coconut oil, butter, bacon, raw milk, fermented foods, raw whole-milk yogurt. I know many of you are cringing as you hear this, but all of our ancestors ate these kinds of foods for generations, and we really did feel great eating those foods. For most people, following an ancestral diet can be extremely helpful for skin and gut issues — and we really saw a huge improvement in our gut health, skin and our moods improved significantly. We were in the process of transitioning to the Perfect Health Diet (PHD) which includes more starches and carbs and is a more balanced approach to ancestral eating. Anyhow, we are due for blood tests since starting this diet last April — and I assume we will see high homocysteine and CBS issues.

    But, my question is, if indeed my 23andme.com results are accurate, does CBS C699T (+,+) automatically mean that we have to go low sulfur for the rest of our lives if we felt great eating what was essentially a high sulfur diet?

    You'd think that we'd have major symptoms from this high sulfur diet, but to be honest we feel fine right now. I'm sure our blood work will say otherwise, but I'm really curious as to what this all means. If I hadn't bothered to check my 23andme.com data, I would have never known about my CBS defect (assuming the genetic testing is accurate). Our skin is great, our mood is great, our weight is fine — we appear to be very healthy. We don't even have any body odor (which usually happens if your body is trying to secrete excess toxins). In fact, the only problem I've had so far is I did experience an over-methylation episode yesterday when I stupidly tried to increase my L-5-methylfolate and methylcobalamin too quickly. As to what general supplements I should be taking now, I have no idea. Last week I was getting a lot of natural vitamins from eggs, Fermented Cod Liver Oil and the occasional slice of beef/lamb liver. Now, it sounds like I need to get most of my nutrition from lots of synthetic pills. :(

    In any case, I made an appointment with a local naturopath who supposedly has some expertise with Methylation issues — unfortunately, he can't see me until March. I have an appointment to see my regular (western) doctor — who likely has no clue about MTHFR/CBS — so I'm not sure what good it will do me beyond trying to figure out what preliminary tests I should order. What I mess. Part of me wishes I never stumbled upon this stuff. Clearly both my parents and my wife's parents are at least heterozygous for these issues and they appear to be perfectly healthy in their late 60s. It's difficult to believe I need to radically change my life when everyone in the family appears to be rather healthy (though, I'm fully aware that our upcoming blood test may say otherwise).

    Would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks in advance!
     
  10. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

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    Hi Greenshots, can you explain to me what high protein can do to the nervous system? What would symptoms of nervous system dominance be? I might relate to this? Also what level of protein keeps your nervous system in balance.

    Thank you
     
  11. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    High protein diets are acidic and people who have sympathetic dominant nervous systems are already way too acidic. This just triggers more fight or flight and nor epi release.

    I'm no expert at the nervous system stuff but thats what my doc explained to me, only she explained the chemical reaction which I've since let go. Some of us need lean protein and lots of veggies and complex carbs and others need lots of fatty, grass fed beef, pork, etc with some root veggies. It just depends on your nervous system. You need to read Gestalt's post about nervous systems since he did a great write-up after seeing his nutrigenomics doc.
    http://www.gestaltreality.com/2012/07/11/metabolic-diet-supplements-an-exploration/
     
  12. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    greenshots

    I am not convinced that moderate to high protein intake will cause sympathetic activation. In fact, I believe it's the other way around, a low protein intake will activate the sympathetic response. Do you have any evidence that can support this idea? How does an acidic diet cause NE release? What's the mechanism? And what is a high protein diet by your definition? How much protein are we talking about?

    Here is an example of a study that showed increased NE levels on a low protein diet:

    Consumption of a Low Protein Diet Increases Norepinephrine Turnover in Brown Adipose Tissue of Adult Rats

    Here is another one, showing reduced sympathetic activity on a high protein diet:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1331380
     
    anne_likes_red likes this.
  13. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

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    Sounds reasonable. I just don't know how to get lots of veggies now with my CBS. That is a good thread. Thank you.
     
  14. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Except there's no legitimate scientific evidence to support metabolic typing. It's just not there.

    And very few populations have ever thrived on plants alone — they just aren't that nutrient-dense and are difficult to digest. Not saying it can't be done, however our stomachs use acid/pepsin to digest food — acid/pepsin is fantastic at breaking down meat (and not so great at breaking down plants). Whereas primates and herbivores use their caecum to ferment plants and extract the nutrients locked in cellulose. Our tiny human caecums are found where our appendix is — the little organ that doesn't do much of anything anymore.

    This, along with our need to consume large quantities of fat-soluble nutrients to nourish our high-fat brains, suggests that we evolved to eat and hunt meat, eggs, fat, organs, skin, etc — where all the nutrients are found (i.e. not in pills or "enriched" flour).

    Interestingly humans can only make B12 in their colons, where it can't be absorbed. Our ancestors would just eat an herbivore's liver to get lots of folate and B12. So if corporations didn't exist to make B12 vitamins, a plant-eating human would need to eat traces of bugs, feces or bug larvae on unwashed produce to get any traces of B12. So, it just doesn't make any sense that humans should be able to thrive on plants without corporate supplementation. I'm aware that some populations have thrived on a plant-based diet, but those same populations became deficient when they started washing the feces, bugs and larvae off of their produce (Hindus who migrated to Britain are a good example of this).

    I just don't see how metabolic typing is accurate when you look at the way the human gut was designed to eat food and absorb B12, and absorb fat-soluble vitamins that can only be transported, absorbed or stored in the presence of fat.

    I'm not trying to start any wars here, but the idea that these somewhat prevalent alleles have been in our genomes for generations — and perhaps many millennia or much longer — suggests that these alleles survived under conditions of moderate to high-protein and high-fat diets.

    I'm willing to admit that a toxic individual "may" need to reduce sulfur to, perhaps, unlock a methylation pathway, but I don't see why a "healthy" (low toxin) individual would need to do that.
     
    helen1 likes this.
  15. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    Beyond the acid & alkaline balance, its really just a matter of common sense. Meat is full of natural glutamate and aspartate. These amino acids are excitatory and stimulate the sympathetic nervous system. But highly fermented foods or vegetables with alotta glutamate can stimulate it, too. Things like peas, mushrooms, cooked tomatoes and other natural glutamates are pretty tasty for a reason, especially when cooked since the bound glutamates are released and become free. We need some of these things and thats why we have them naturally in our foods. To me, its not a matter of getting rid of everything like that but it does seem to make sense to go for more balance, or drop it down some, when your'e a sympathetic type, esp if your system has crashed.

    I'm really not here to convince anyone of anything. Your'e allowed to live and eat however you want. If you feel great eating a ton of protein then go for it. But I would also check out studies on how aminos like glutamate and aspartate effect the nervous system--for better and for worse and then just make the best choices you can for your own wiring and health issues.

    About metabolic typing, you may be confusing this with the diet craze instead of Dr. Gonzalez and Isaacs work in this arena. We know that cavemen sure weren't gorging on meat everyday, it was an added bonus. The way I learned it, Dr. Gonzalez doesn't believe anyone is or should be completely vegan. Thats all based on Dr. Price's work since he travelled all over the world and never found a truly vegan tribe anywhere. Some were more vegetarian but they still ate eggs, milk, fish or something from animals. Then other tribes like Eskimos survived on 80% fat and virtually no fruits or vegetables. They were the parasympathetic people and when you understand the nervous systems, that makes alotta sense why they'd need all that meat and fat. I guess when it comes down to it, there's really no one size fits all diet. But when someone with more of a sympathetic type nervous system crashes and burns, it makes sense to limit the protein instead of eating a high protein diet but not completely eliminating it altogether. Thats not good either.

    Fresh veggies, I think your'e putting too much importance on the minor CBS defect. I know my doc would never tell anyone to avoid all of the sulfur veggies or eliminate all protein. She's got more of a balanced viewpoint and looks at what the person needs instead of rubberstamping something a researcher or physician says on a topic. If you got rid of every sulfur kind of veggie, you'd be getting rid of all of the natural anticancer and detoxification effects of broccoli, cauliflower, spinach and kale. But it would make sense to avoid sulfate or sulfite based wine and dried fruits that are the more harmful man made chemicals. Try not to fixate on one area or you'll drive yourself crazy. Just eat whats more nutritious and what you like so long as its not Doritos and Diet coke :)
     
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  16. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    IN my experience, dietary needs change with time. There are the seasonal changes, of course, but also there are also the metabolic changes that are unique to each person. I have found it important to tune in to that, and listen to my body, rather listening to what some expert tells me is the "best diet" for me. I learned some hard lessons about being overly restrictive with several diets I was on in the past "for health reasons." Ironically, I ended up with rather severe deficiencies from a couple of these diets.

    At this point, I am on a modified Paleo diet, but I listen to my cravings and respect them. I do not eat what I consider "garbage" (sugar, processed food, trans-fats) or gluten, but I can tolerate goat dairy, so I eat it if I want it. I eat small portions of meat, lots of vegetables, nuts and seeds, eggs, avocados, some potatoes and sweet potatoes, one piece of fruit/day, occasional rice, rice pasta and beans. I could not ever imagine eliminating all cruciferous vegies from my diet. I love kale and collards, which are in that family, and eat them almost every day.

    I have the minor CBS SNP, but I do not plan to make any big changes in my diet because of it.
     
    helen1 likes this.
  17. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    Makes sense dreambirdie. Balance is definitely the goal and it sounds like you found yours, too. But I also see now why some of my friends need so much meat and can't stand to look at my colorful salads. To me, its a beautiful sight and to them, its repulsive. How funny that we are all so different.
     
    Dreambirdie likes this.
  18. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    greenshots:
    Perhaps this happens in people with compromised health, leaky guts, or toxic bodies, but that is not what happens to healthy individuals. Healthy people do not exit a steakhouse feeling excited and stimulated. Healthy people feel happy, satiated and tired. For instance, the only time Steve Jobs's wife, Lisa, ever remembered Jobs being "relaxed" in his life was the one time he ate meat.

    “It was the first time, I’d felt with him, so relaxed and content, over those trays of meat; the excess, the permission and warmth after the cold salads, meant a once inaccessible space had opened. He was less rigid with himself, even human under the great ceilings with the little chairs with the meat and me."
    (p260-261, from Walter Isaacson’s biography Steve Jobs, Simon & Schuster, 2011)

    That's how people usually feel when they eat meat. There's nothing "excitatory" about those amino acids when consumed by a healthy individual.

    greenshots:
    Greenshots, I do appreciate your opinion, and I thank you for your responses. However, the best evidence suggests that that's pretty much false. Yes, human hunter-gatherers had very diverse diets, but on average they were meat-heavy omnivores.

    http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/71/3/682

    Plants were only seasonally available in many inhabited regions throughout the planet. To say that meat was a "bonus" for these hominids is pretty ludicrous. During the Winter hominid survival depended on meat consumption — often large megafauna that could provide many, many meals. And the whole reason hominids migrated away from the Equatorial regions was to follow animal migrations across land bridges and ice sheets (i.e. to follow the meat).

    Furthermore, hominids evolved to have “meat‐adaptive” genes to process fat an animal tissues.

    "The chimpanzee life span is shorter than that of humans, which is consistent with a faster schedule of aging. We consider aspects of diet that may have selected for genes that allowed the evolution of longer human life spans with slower aging. Diet has changed remarkably during human evolution. All direct human ancestors are believed to have been largely herbivorous. Chimpanzees eat more meat than other great apes, but in captivity are sensitive to hypercholesterolemia and vascular disease. We argue that this dietary shift to increased regular consumption of fatty animal tissues in the course of hominid evolution was mediated by selection for “meat‐adaptive” genes. This selection conferred resistance to disease risks associated with meat eating also increased life expectancy. One candidate gene is apolipoprotein E (apoE), with the E3 allele evolved in the genus Homo that reduces the risks for Alzheimer’s and vascular disease, as well as influencing inflammation, infection, and neuronal growth. Other evolved genes mediate lipid metabolism and host defense. The timing of the evolution of apoE and other candidates for meat‐adaptive genes is discussed in relation to key events in human evolution."

    See: http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/381662

    And the evolution to a meat-eating diet coincided with a surge in lifespan and intelligence:

    See: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/02/050223144712.htm

    Furthermore, as I explained before, getting nutrition from plants is rather difficult. Plants do not have B12, nor do they have true Vitamin A.

    [​IMG]

    And even the healthiest humans are poor converters of beta carotene into Vitamin A (retinol) — with vegetarians being the worst converters of beta carotene to Vitamin A [Source]. The most nutrient-dense sources of energy are animal-based — particularly organ meats. There is no debate about that. And we can't forget that eggs and meats are the best source of choline, which is essential for the liver, but is also high in sulfur. Anyone who needed large quantities of "supplements" before corporations existed would have had to get those large quantities of nutrients from high sulfur animal sources.

    The whole point of eating a grass-fed, plant-eating animal is that you are — for all practical purposes — consuming all of the "veggies" that the herbivore consumed, over its lifetime, and concentrated in its easy-to-digest fats and organs.

    So, any idea that all our "healthy" CBS ancestors needed to lower their meat consumption and pop lots of B12 pills is a little ridiculous. If that were true, the CBS mutations wouldn't be as prevalent as they are. Our ancestors clearly got most of their vitamins from animals — particularly organ meats. Of course, one doesn't need to eat organ meats every day — nor should they. You can eat liver once or twice a week to obtain a lot of nutrition. That's what we evolved to do.

    But, I think we both agree that a "sick" CBS individual might need to do a low-sulfur biohack when sensitivities arise and all else fails. Though, it would seem that fixing gut flora and healing the gut would be key in that situation and perhaps a specialized nutrient-dense diet might be worth trying first (i.e. SCD or GAPS diet).

    greenshots:
    As far as I can tell, there is zero hard evidence that they were "parasympathetic" people. It appears you're simply extrapolating an unproven theory onto an entire population without any evidence to support it. More likely high-lattitude hominids just consumed and developed the right gut flora for the diet that was available for their regions.

    I'll fully admit that some people may have food sensitivities — likely due to gut flora imbalances or leaky guts — but that's very different from being genetically hardwired to only dine in a specific region of the planet. Humans are very adaptive when they are healthy. To give you an example, almost all Asians have the proper gut flora to digest seaweed, while most Caucasians don't. This isn't a genetic trait. Asians simply acquire the proper flora from eating raw seaweed — where the bacteria are known to proliferate — and then they pass it down in their family microbiomes. If you want to better digest seaweed, the best thing you can do is go down to the ocean eat a little raw seaweed to get the right bacteria in your gut.

    In no way am I advocating that everyone should, or needs to, eat 50% protein. A balance is very important since plants help us detox our bodies. I'm just pointing out that high sulfur/protein diets obviously didn't kill off the CBS mutation — the mutation is too prevalent and too many humans with CBS mutations lived in seasonal zones where plants weren't always available year round.
     
  19. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    I see this differently because we know that human beings evolved and maybe thats where some of these defects may be adpative, at least my doc feels that many of them are and shouldn't always be treated. We know that people didn't stay in one spot. These early nomads travelled all over and they had to adapt to the food supply in their environments. To assume that we should all eat what neanderthals ate is not taking into account the thousands of years of evolution and adaptation. This explains where eskimos would evolve to their whale blubber diet while people in the Pacific Islands would eat fish, fruit, and some plants. Then you have an odd tribe in Africa that has thrived drinking animal blood and fermented milk without any fruits or vegetables at all. I don't think we can really put everyone into a category. There are way too many variables for that.

    You sorta seem like a black and white thinker and thats just not where I come from. To think something excitatory is all bad is just not true and it isn't what I'm trying to say at all. We obviously need some of these things because you can only get many aminos from food and we do need to have them to think & function. As for extrapolating, I've read alotta the science from The journal of Nature, The Price Foundation, and many other sources. Are they all accepted in traditonal medicine? Nope. But then, none of us would even be here if traditional science and medicine had it all figured out.

    As for the foods & defects, I'd have to say that its like my doc says. People had these defects for hundreds of years and maybe didn't have any problems, at least until they were old. But now that we have such a toxic environment, once you get that sick your'e just adding in more and more of a burden. She says she has an 80 year old guy who has some of the worst genes she's seen but he's an organic farmer on the coast and never drank, smoked, or had any obvious toxic exposures. Then you have an 8 year old autistic with the same genes who lives in urban LA with the lovely smog and inter city chemicals, who ate horribly, was vaccinated over & over when he was sick, and developed all kinds of health problems. I don't think these genes can be used to say whose going to get sick as much as its a map for people who are already sick. Then you tackle whats in your power to tackle. It might not be something you'll have to do forever but its a way to get the toxic load down for now.

    But again, if you feel really healthy eating much more protein, I say go for it. For now, I have to get to work so don't have the time to devote to adding in links to old studies I've read or to pick apart specific comments. Suffice it to say, we see things differently and its ok. As long as you get where you need to go in your recovery, you don't have to do it the way that I did. We all have our own road there.
     
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  20. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Thanks greenshoots, I appreciate it. I don't plan to eat a high protein diet, per se. My plan is to follow a more balanced diet.

    My general point is that before the invention of modern supplements, the only reliable way to get high quantities of supplementation was by eating animal products (fish, eggs, meat, bone broths, organ meats). Vitamin supplementation is a very, very new phenomenon in terms of our evolution. In my mind, supplementation is useful for nutrients that are nearly impossible to obtain through diet (magnesium, for instance) due to soil depletion, environmental factors, etc.

    So, I just have a hard time wrapping my head around all the advice to ramp up all supplementation and cut back on (high-sulfur) nutrient-dense foods. It seems incredibly difficult to juggle all the nutrient-ratios and co-factors in terms of the way our bodies evolved. I'm sure it's a wonderful biohack for a particular methylation situation — when pathways are blocked up, perhaps — but we would certainly be among the very first CBS humans on the planet to greatly reduce our nutrient-dense food sources in exchange for high quantities of artificial supplementation. And clearly CBS humans before us (including our own great-great-grand parents) did not eat or supplement in such a fashion. Healthy humans tend to be able to adapt to whatever nutrient-dense foods they can get their hands on — that's why our species has been able to conquer nearly every corner of the planet.

    Again, I could see how low-sulfur might be desirable as a biohack, in certain situations, but human history suggests that low-sulfur/high-supplementation would be a very new dining option for our particular alleles. That gives me hope that other dining options are appropriate for our kind if/when we are healthy!

    Anyway, thanks again for your help. It's been very helpful to hear your opinions.
     

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