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How to remove bacterial biofilm from the nose?

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by joe12, Sep 15, 2015.

  1. joe12

    joe12 Senior Member

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    I believe I might have persistent bacterial colonies in my sinuses and around my eyes, which likely are being protected by biofilms. What is the best way to eliminate this? Is there a more specific way to remove them from the nose? I bet that if I take herbal pills they most likely will not reach the nose, it will most likely never go by the blood-brain barrier. Therefore there must be a good spray made for this.
     
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  2. LivingwithFibro

    LivingwithFibro Lily

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    I too am interested to know!
     
  3. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    BEG spray? @heapsreal uses it. It's compounded

    Search around here, he talks about it.

    Also I'm not sure if this is it but Google Marcons. It's some sinus crud. Crud is the medical term. Lol. I can't remember exactly.

    @Ema knows.
     
  4. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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  5. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Xylitol breaks up biofilm. You can get ready made xylitol nasal sprays, such as this one, or you could mix your own solution.
     
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  6. joe12

    joe12 Senior Member

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    I tried mixing my own "solution" of birch xylitol and it was not good, I simply added water and salt and it made it worse. Don't know why thou.
     
  7. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    If a spray or rinse has a different salinity than the body it can be very irritating . Best to use a base of normal saline which is .9% sodium would be best?
     
  8. minimus

    minimus

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    Cheney recommends EDTA nasal spray to break down biofilm in the sinuses. I believe he heard about this treatment from Richie Shoemaker. EDTA nasal spray is available from compounding pharmacies -- I got mine from Hopkinton Compounding Pharmacy in Massachusetts.

    Although I had no problem using it, I know some of the more severely ill patients in Cheney's practice seemed to have histamine reactions to EDTA. He recommended that they deal with this by using EDTA intermittently rather than every day and taking antihistamines (Allegra, H2 blockers like Ranitidine, or Benadryl) before using the spray.

    FWIW, I have had chronic sinusitis since a few months after coming down with CFS in 1998. I once saw an ENT who specializes in non-surgical treatment of sinusitis, who did sinus scopes and cultures -- and he found that I have about a dozen pathogenic bacteria and fungi growing in my sinuses, including e. coli, and that a number of these are completely drug resistant. So, even if biofilm is protecting these organisms, there is no antibiotic or antifungal that would eliminate them.

    About 18 months ago -- after years of chronic hoarseness that seemed unrelated to sinusitis -- I went to see a specialist in voice problems, Jamie Kaufman in New York. She diagnosed me with "post-viral vagul neuropathy", which means I have an injured vagal nerve, so that the sphincters in my esophagus and throat, which are supposed to close after I eat to keep food in the stomach and out of esophagus, throat, and upper airways, no longer close normally after I eat. In addition, one side of my vocal cords is slightly paralyzed, which is why I am prone to hoarseness. As a result of this vagal neuropathy, undigested food and bacteria from the stomach and small intestine end up sloshing at night into my sinuses through the force of gravity. If I lay down too soon after eating a "normal" meal, especially one relatively heavy in carbohydrates, my sinusitis and CFS symptoms are inevitably worse the next morning.

    Bottom line: what works best for my sinus problems and CFS is eating a paleo-like diet and avoiding eating 3-4 hours before going to bed. If I eat a regular meal with too much carbs and then go to sleep soon thereafter, I wake up with blocked nasal passages, sinus inflammation, and sometimes the start of a sinus infection. If, on the other hand, I eat a paleo-like meal for dinner and then eat no or very little food for 3-4 hours before going to bed, my sinuses inflammation lessens, usually in fairly short order. This has systemic benefits -- less brain fog, dizziness, fatigue, flu-like achiness. This approach to my evening diet is not a cure, but it does lessen symptoms quite a bit.

    According to Kaufman, this type of vagal neuropathy is fairly common, not only among people with CFS/ME. She orders tests to arrive at this diagnosis, but my guess is that you will know you have it if the regimen I just described improves your sinus symptoms. And, like with me, it might have broader systemic benefits.
     
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  9. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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  10. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Nasal spray with xylitol made my sinus issue worse, too. Don't know why, either.

    Olive leaf extract helps with the eye symptoms very quickly, so I don't think you have to worry about the blood brain barrier.

    This week I started using the acidic water from an ionizer in my nasal cavity and around my eye. It was working until I started to eat yeasted bread a couple of days ago.

    Someone said coconut oil helps, I'll have to try that next.

    I think I have an infected nerve.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2015
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  11. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

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    @Violeta How do you plan to use coconut oil for your sinuses?
     
  12. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Actually I am just using this stuff for inside my nose and then I find it helps the irritation in my eye. For my sinuses I find that olive leaf extract gives relief. Although the bones in my face sometimes hurt, and I wonder if rubbing the coconut oil on my face would help with that pain, if the coconut oil would penetrate far enough to deal with pathogens in the bone? I have read that the condition of the sinuses reflects what's going on in the gut.

    I just got out my birch bark extract from Chaga Mountain. That's what xylitol is made from, and I think when they say xylitol has such and such properties, I think they mean birch bark extract and then they extrapolate the properties to xylitol. Anyway, I rubbed some of the tincture topically around my eye and in my nasal cavity and it feel so much better already.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2015
  13. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    There's an old book online that talks about maintaining perfect health by keeping your sinuses clean and eating so that your gut stays clean because that is what helps your sinuses stay clear. I was looking for it yesterday but couldn't find it. The author talked about cleaning the sinus area with something, and I can't remember for sure, but I think it was something like sodium hypochlorite. I'll have to see if I can find it.

    Yikes, that's an interesting google search!
     
  14. joe12

    joe12 Senior Member

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    How do I get acidic water, do I have to buy an ionizer? Do you take the olive leaf extract in pills?

    I worry thay by using a nasal spray with abx and edta I will get rid of good bacteria and eventually make it worse or have to keep using it. How am I supposed to re-establish the flora in the nose? I have a theory that some bacteria migrate from the gut, thru the lymph system, to the nose, don't know if this is already established thou.

    I worry that you could develop what I have, daily chronic headache, definitely you wan't to keep the sinuses clean. In my case the likely trigger was viral thou, don't know how that happens thou or how to cure it, but its pretty bad. I am also getting syneresis of the vitreous inside my eyes, and also lots of dandruff in my eyebrows. Both the skin and the vitreous contain collagen susceptible to oxidation, inflammation, and decay, and that is a big clue to me.
     
  15. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    The acidic water would be from an ionizer, such as ECHO H2, but they are expensive. I take olive leaf in a capsule, from Olivus.

    I don't know if you have to worry about reestablishing flora in the nose. I think you're right that it's a virus, and I have seen that some viruses actually enter the body through the nasal pasage.

    I already have had the daily headache, the type where I wake up with it if I sleep past 6. It's getting less right now, though, something is working.

    I think you're right when you use the word oxidative stress. The pathogen creates reactive oxygen species, and you need to take care of that. Thioredoxin was shown by a former member here to be the thing to work towards. FAD or FMN, can't remember which one, is a precursor, so taking the coenzymated form of B2 helps a lot. I don't recognize what you said about your eyes, but I saw that oxidative stress is hard on the eyes, too. You might want to check if Vitamin A and zinc would go well with the B2. By coincidence, Vitamin a and zinc are good for fighting viruses.
    I'll check tomorrow whether topical boric acid is better than the acidic water for the eye problem.

    The water ionizer makes alkaline water too, which contains extra hydrogen. The hydrogen takes care of the oxidative stress. Usually one depends on antioxidants, but for some reason I guess my body was running low on them. So you drink the alkaline water that the ionizer produces and you use the acidic part on the skin and in the oral and nasal cavities.

    Besides that, you do try to work on the gut, but yeah, you probably don't want to take abx for that, either. At least I don't.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2015
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  16. joe12

    joe12 Senior Member

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    So are FAD and FMN supplements? Do I have to also the the coenzymated b2 or b2 alone? How does thioredoxin works?

    The syneresis is when the gel inside the eyes desintegrate, basically we have collagen fibers running along the gel in the eye, and these fibers are separated by hialuronic acid bonds. When these bonds get destroyed, the collagen sticks, forming the famous visual floaters, I have hundreds of them and I am only twenty four years old. This usually happens in your sixties. I believe its oxidate stress, not much else explains this, and I have horrible pain around my eyes, in the nose, lots of photophobia, so there is not a whole lot to wonder about. The point is, where is the defect and how do I fix it? I am considering exon or genome sequencing to give me key clues to this because I am not sure what to do and I don't want to go blind.
     
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  17. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    The FAD and FMN are both from B2, and the most available form is called coenzymated B2, such as Source Naturals coenzymated b2.

    Very interesting about the floaters, I've never heard that explanation. Yeah, I have floaters, the pain around the eyes, nose, general face pain in that area, it comes and goes. Is yours constant?

    Thioredoxin reduces (neutralizes) the free radicals (oxidative stress). I'll see if I can find the thread where I found out about it for you.

    The cause? Something to think about. Maybe just reactive oxygen species from the virus? ROS is the acronym, I'll see if i can find some links.
     
  18. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    You could go over to this thread and read about endoplasmic reticulum stress and oxidative stress (ROS). I linked to a page in the middle of the thread and if you find it interesting you could go to the beginning. Mariovitali doesn't look at it from the point of view of having a virus, but that's okay, I added some links about that. Someone who is no longer a member here brought the thioredoxin info into the subject.

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...nd-a-possible-treatment-for-cfs.37244/page-37
     
  19. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    I wonder if the oils such as those found in Olba's have any effect in stripping bacteria or viruses from the tissue?

    It looks as though they have a positive effect and can be useful, but they are not able to get the viruses once they are in the cells.

    Ingredients: Essential oils of Peppermint, Eucalyptus, Cajeput, Wintergreen, Juniper and Clove

    http://www.olbas.com/olbasoil.htm

    They certainly do provide some relief.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/13678235

    Virucidal effect of peppermint oil on the enveloped viruses herpes simplex virus type 1 and type 2 in vitro.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18693101
    Melissa officinalis oil affects infectivity of enveloped herpesviruses.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2015
  20. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    It would help to know exactly what the pathogen is, but if it is epstein barr virus, l-arginine is probably the way to go.

    I don't know if this is the right way to work on the virus or not, though.

    Down-regulation of spontaneous Epstein-Barr virus reactivation in the P3HR-1 cell line by L-arginine.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12490409
     

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