The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
OverTheHills presents the first article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME international Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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High-dose intravenous Vitamin C effective against Epstein-Barr-Virus?

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Wonkmonk, Mar 6, 2018.

  1. Daffodil

    Daffodil Senior Member

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    I think high dose vitamin C has the potential to cause kidney problems but generally, it is pretty safe.

    One doctor I know uses it for cancer. I met the daughter of one of his patients who lived 8 years on vitamin C IV's even though he was terminal. He died only because he stopped or lessened the frequency of his Vitamin C IV's

    I think this doctor does a 20 g push and does the rest (80g?) by infusion...this raises blood levels of the C

    There are tons of people who have used it for CFS and as an antiviral

    I would not bother trying to make liposomal vitamin C at home...I dont think you would get the particle size small enough and the taste is really really gross, too. Was a waste of time and money for me.
     
  2. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

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  3. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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  4. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    The Riordan Clinic are the same people who published the study that you linked to in the first post (click on author information). The study data comes from the clinic's own database. The study says:

    They say:

    But there may be a slight flaw in the study, which you can see in this paragraph:
    The flaw is that the allocation of the group who received the IV vitamin C and the group who did not receive treatment may not be random, which it needs to be for a proper randomized controlled trial.

    The authors do not mention the reasons why patients were given IV vitamin C treatment or not given this treatment, but for example, if doctors at the clinic decided on who gets treatment on the basis of symptom severity, then the two groups will not be randomly chosen groups.



    It is interesting that the authors found higher EBV antibody levels in patients with lower blood vitamin C levels:
    So that suggests that taking oral vitamin C possibly might help reduce Epstein-Barr virus infection.

    They also they found higher EBV antibody levels in patients with lower blood vitamin D levels:
    So that suggests that taking oral vitamin D possibly might help reduce Epstein-Barr virus infection.
     
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  5. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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    There seems to be some evidence for this in peer reviewed journals as well:

    http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1352458516654310

    From a personal experience, I can definitely say that high Vitamin D makes me much worse. Tried it 3 times and each time the same thing. But I think it's perhaps not the Vitamin D per se, but the higher calcium absorption, because calcium supplements also make me much worse.

    I think calcium is an activator for some cytokines, so if Dr Montoya is right and elevated cytokines play a role, then this could make sense.
     
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  6. mari_gold

    mari_gold

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    @Wonkmonk is there any evidence for that? I'm asking because that would be interesting as Vit D also makes me worse (but if my Vit D levels are higher e. g. sun exposure I'm feeling better). I never had problems with IV Vit C or oral.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  7. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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    @mari_gold There are dozens of studies that describe the links between calcium and immune response. Too many to post all the links, but easy to find in google, just use the search terms calcium + immune system and calcium + cytokines.

    Vitamin D makes me worse, also when it is naturally from sunlight.
     
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  8. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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  9. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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    By the way, I did my first infusion this morning (7.5g). No negative events. I think I feel a bit better, but as of now, I assume this is a placebo effect and not real or permanent. I am also on a very slow upward trend since doing the antibiotics, so it might be unrelated to the Vitamin C.

    I plan to do a 2nd course of antibiotics starting tomorrow. I'm not sure yet if I'm going to continue Vitamin C parallel or do finish the antibiotics first.
     
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  10. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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    From Wikipedia (in fairness, this might be bogus, but it sounds interesting):

    "Humans and other species that do not synthesize vitamin C carry a mutated and ineffective form of the enzyme L-gulonolactone oxidase, the fourth and last step in the ascorbate-producing machinery. In the anthropoids lineage, this mutation likely occurred 40 to 25 million years ago. The three surviving enzymes continue to produce the precursors to vitamin C, but the process is incomplete and the body then disassembles them.

    In the 1960s, the Nobel-Prize-winning chemist Linus Pauling, after contact[20]with Irwin Stone, began actively promoting vitamin C as a means to greatly improve human health and resistance to disease. His book How to Live Longer and Feel Better was a bestseller and advocated taking more than 10 grams per day orally, thus approaching the amounts released by the liver directly into the circulation in other mammals: an adult goat, a typical example of a vitamin-C-producing animal, will manufacture more than 13,000 mg of vitamin C per day in normal health and much more when stressed."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C_megadosage#Relative_deficiency_hypothesis
     
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  11. mari_gold

    mari_gold

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    As for me it took 24 hours to notice any effect of IV Vit C and it lastet for 3-4 days. I'm excited how this is going to work out for you @Wonkmonk!
    Did you apply the infusion yourself or did you go to your GP?
     
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  12. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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    Learner1 and Hip like this.
  13. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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    I am in the lucky position to have a cooperative GP in my near family :)
     
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  14. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    If that amount of vitamin C is required each day, I wonder why humans have difficulty absorbing high doses of vitamin C orally. In know in my case, if I start going about around 12 grams a day of ascorbic acid (taken in 3 divided doses of 4 grams), then I get bowel flushing (diarrhea).

    The bowel flushing might be related to the cytotoxic of ascorbic acid on epithelial cells: the study I mentioned earlier found that the CC50 (the concentration that kills 50% of the epithelial cells after 24 hours) was around 2 mM = 350 μg/ml = 350 mg/liter.

    So 350 mg of ascorbic acid per liter is the CC50 concentration that is toxic to epithelial cells (which line the bowels). So perhaps that's why when you take high doses like say 5 grams of vitamin C orally, you get bowel flushing, to protect the bowel from the toxic effects of high dose vitamin C.



    That article also states:
    So it seems that although humans cannot make vitamin C, we have evolved a way to recycle vitamin C in our red blood cells.
     
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  15. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    Having seen hundreds of IV C infusions and had over 100 myself, and seen how it had helped people and dug into how it works, here are a few things I've learned;
    • @Hip You are correct. There's a maximum of how much oral can get through your intestines and into your bloodstream, according to Mark Levine at NIH. See attached.
    • The Blood Brain Barrier is not some brick brick wall that can't be passed. Its actually more permeable in many people, including sick people and those with leaky guts, which is most of us. Vitamin C has been successfully used to treat brain cancers, supporting the idea it gets through the BBB into the brain.
    • Kidneys should be monitored, but I haven't heard of any issues in the clinics I've been in in the past 5 years.
    • The one gotcha for high dose vitamin C is in people with a defective G6PD gene. In these patients, it can be fatal, so the first step my doctors do is to test for that gene.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    Result of that Oral vs IV C.pdf:

    Compare that extrapolation from serum levels of 1.25g to this other study which measured actual serum levels from up to 20g orally:

    (emphasis added by me) With IVs these peaks are reached for a few hours per IV, with oral 20 g/d up to 517 µmol/L would be steady state.

    I only get bowel issues above 50 g/d of ascorbic acid. Have been taking about 23 g/d orally for the last 9 years. With many benefits.
     
  17. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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    This is a great question. One may also ask why we can only absorb a few µg of Vitamin B12 per meal and just 1-3% of higher doses, even with severe deficiency and very low intake. It may be the case that the way the gut works, there is a level above which further absorption of Vitamin C is not possible.

    You take it all orally, correct?
     
  18. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    Yes.
     
  19. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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    Had the second VC infusion 2 hours ago, with the double dose (15g). Felt a bit dizzy this time, but no adverse reactions otherwise so far.

    I think I am feeling a bit better after the infusions, but I don't feel a substantial effect so far.

    I think I am going to continue, just ordered a 20-dose package from a internet pharmacy. As long as there are no negative effects, I want to up the dose gradually, perhaps until 50 or 75 grams. Let's see how it goes.
     
  20. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

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    @Wonkmonk ,

    I can see the Pascorbin product exists in two forms, ampoules or bottle; Would you tell me which one you use?
    Do you dilute it? How long does it take for the infusion?

    Instructions from the site:

    5 ml ampoule:
    Slowly inject 5 ml a day intravenously, up to 50 ml injection solution in addition to the infusion.

    50 ml injection bottle:
    For peripheral-venous short infusion dilute 50 ml PASCORBIN with 100 ml of isotonic saline solution and slowly infuse.
     

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