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Hashimoto and B12

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Marlène, Dec 7, 2013.

  1. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

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    Edegem, Belgium
    This question is for my son of 20.

    He suffers from Hashimoto (thyroid autoimmune disease) and chronic fatigue.
    We had his blood tested in every little detail and it's obvious his energy system is out of whack.
    His adrenals are semi-exhausted, Q10 is too low, B12 is limit, copper very low, ... Very slow heartbeat too since he is a baby.
    We had him checked for Pfeiffer, CMV, Lyme... nothing active.

    A doctor gave him way too much B6 and some B12 which made things temporarily worse.
    He feels fine with multvitamins and lots of Q10. His diet is fine, mostly organic, no gluten, lots of fruits, vegetables, nuts, good fats, proteins, ... It costs me a fortune LOL
    His body type is very athletic and he still gets a boost of running or swimming, something he tries to practise every day. But it is a daily struggle to get up, stay awake, be able to study (engineering), have no brainfog, ... He feels sick in cycles. It breaks my heart.

    I convinced him to reconsider vit B12 (hydroxy) this summer. He got an injection and everything went fine.
    Last week he had one again and he felt really sick for three days.

    He is a little bit desperate for the coming six weeks. Exams will be tough ...

    What would you advise?
     
  2. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    Is his Hashi's currently flaring or is it under good control? How are his free thyroid hormone levels? What is he doing to support his adrenals? Is he low in iron?

    Iodine can flare Hashi's so he may want to avoid that. Gluten free is a very good thing.
     
  3. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

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    hello Ema

    apparently the Hashi is under control. We are seeing three doctors and they all confirm he should be feeling fine ...
    I will have a look at his free thyroid hormone levels. He's studying right now, don't want to disturb him to get his papers.

    To support the adrenals he drinks licorice tea. His iron is fine.
    We are aware about the iodine. Do you think himalayan salt is containing too much of it?
     
  4. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I doubt that there is too much iodine in the sea salt.

    The licorice tea might not provide enough adrenal support if his are flagging. I really like licorice myself because it helps keep the cortisol around longer but he might want to try a capsule. I take about 500 mg 3 or 4 times a day. Of course watch BP and electrolytes if taking licorice long term.

    He might also want to try an adrenal glandular if you think his adrenals are not too bad overall for extra support during the stress of exams.

    I would look at the thyroid free levels first (slow heartbeat makes me think his levels might not yet be optimal), then increasing adrenal support, and possibly colostrum or a PRP spray to dampen inflammation if you think that the Hashi's may be the issue.

    Has he tried d-ribose?
     
    Marlène likes this.
  5. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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  6. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I know someone taking Dr. Wilson's Adrenal Rebuilder who really likes it. It's made from various animal glands like the glandulars, but the hormones are taken out. So it's all the supporting nutrients instead. The hormones can cause adverse effects. I don't tolerate them at all - too overstimulating.

    SAMe makes CoQ10. If he needs CoQ10, then it doesn't sound like he's methylating well. CoQ10 is something I don't need to take anymore. I took it for several years for brain fog. I'm doing just a small amount of methylation supps.

    My adrenals also appear to be recovering as I don't need as much electrolyte supplementation. They were flatlined, almost zero, for many years.

    You didn't say if he was getting any methylfolate (like in the multivitamin). Also the amount of B12 in the injection was probably quite large.

    Has he done a 23andme test and do you know what his methylation SNPs are?

    In general, it's best to Start Low and Go Slow to avoid adverse effects. See the document linked in my signature regarding this. You can get the right forms of B12 in either sublingual pills or liquid drops and reduce that to smaller amounts than what would be in an injection.
     
    Marlène likes this.
  7. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Hi Marlene. I have Hashi's. I do fine w/ Himalayan salt, but flare w/ celtic sea salt. I can manage a small piece of fish every two weeks, but more iodine also creates histamine flare. I relied on Chinese licorice root for a couple of years, but as my adrenals got worse, I could no longer process it, it created edema and I was using big amounts of other minerals. 2 years ago I switched to adrenal glandular. It's been wonderful. It feels like this supplements what I need directly, without my body having to process it through multiple systems. I'm also using glandular hypothalamus, pituitary, and thymus.

    At the outset of my ME/CFS 10 years ago, I stopped looking for drs when I found one who would shift me off of thyroxine. We tried for 2 years to stabilize me on various combinations of Armour, T3, T4, settling on time-released T3 after testing for reverse T3. It would be another 4 years before I discovered Dr. John Lowe's work with thyroid. (Unfortunately, the vast website he ran has been removed, or was when last I looked, because of ownership issues following his untimely death.) Anyway, that got me onto T3, despite my compounding chemist's warning that it might have side effects (rapid heart rate straight after taking; which never happened to me), not time-released. This has really worked for me.

    As for the B12 part of your question. I tried the Simple Methylation Protocol over a couple years. It did not work for me, although that was also before I removed gluten, dairy, etc. I've been on Freddd's Protocol for 9 months. I now classify myself as 80% healed. I've come to agree with Freddd's postulation that ME/CFS might well be a B12 deficiency syndrome. Certainly there are those with viral and other triggers. And many of us need to supplement to meet our genetic deficits. But especially after watching the video I'm linking below, and experiencing my own increasing wellness, for many of us B12 is at the core of the problem and of the solution. Freddd names the Deadlock Quartet as the 4 components most directly affecting the B12 uptake: Methylfolate, MethylB12, AdenoB12, L-Carnitine-Fumarate (LCF). I can give you my favorite links to that content if you want. Best to you, ahmo

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BvEizypoyO0
     
    Marlène likes this.
  8. joshi81

    joshi81 Senior Member

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    am igoing wrong or in the video it says that the guy found b12 deficiency in his lab testing????? i mean the one who all of us have "normal"
     
  9. joshi81

    joshi81 Senior Member

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    ok sorry i went through all the video and i had the answer :p
     
  10. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    @ahmo, do you know how Dr. Lowe sustained the injury to his head from which he died? That is too sad.

    Thanks
     
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Marlene,

    Hashimoto's is thought to be an autoimmune disease caused by b12 and/or folate deficiency. If the HyCbl injection started methylation feeling really sick could be because of paradoxical folate insufficiency and/or low potassium. AdoCbl and LCF might help a whole lot too.

    Some people find improvement of Hashimoto's with b12 and folate if it is still in active mode.
     
  12. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Hi Violeta. My recollection (for whatever THAT's worth!) is that he fell off a roof. He survived for a few weeks following. I have to say, now, that as useful as his info was for me getting onto T3, once I realized that I have celiac disease, I went through the index of his Big Book ( a huge textbook on thyroid and FM), there wasn't a single reference to celiac, grain, gluten. I've given the book away, but I'll bet there wasn't anything re B12, etc. I relied on his statements that correct (high enough) doses of T3 would eliminate symptoms like mood and anxiety/agitation. I pushed it too high, one day I thought I might pass out in a heated pool, in retrospect was on the pathway to a disaster. Now, since implementing GAPS diet and B12 protocol, I'm taking 45mg T3, the lowest I've ever used. (And I've just learned from some other thread that I've got a genetic reason for my poor memory, both in it's architecture and in working memory. Great to discover a true underlying cause for a life-long issue.) cheers, ahmo
     
  13. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

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    Edegem, Belgium
    So B12 deficiency can cause Hashimoto? I thought it was the other way around. This is new to me!

    What is LCF please? I see it everywhere.

    Where can I found an short explanation about paradoxical folate insufficiency? A link is enough.

    I appreciate your knowledge Freddd but your laps of text are just too much information to process. I have no trouble reading but it's the processing of it (and conversing in another language as well in my case). A easy step by step manual would do wonders, if you could find a collaborator here, you would be able to help a lot more people for sure!
     
  14. joshi81

    joshi81 Senior Member

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    yes it was the same i told in my post...all the info should be compressed in a step by step post of easly reading and understanding because this way is quite confusing and often discouraging to think that there are useful informations out there but you cannot understand exactly how to use them
     
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Marlene,

    LCF - L-Carnitine Fumarate, the type of l-carnitine most likely to help us who have CFS/FMS. It appears to be very active for about 90% here and ALCAR appears equally effective for about 10%. A lot of people have no insufficiency.

    I try to give a simple explanation of paradoxical folate insufficiency. At the simplest level our body has different layers that are given b12 and/or l-methylfolate at separate times if the body doesn't have enough for all layers to get them at once. So the effect can be that one layer is healing and another layer is breaking down. As the cause is complicated the folate levels in tests may be just fine despite lots of deficiency or insufficiency symptoms.

    This can have a number of causes from types of folate that don't work as well for some people like folic acid or folinic acid or even for some unfortunate few, folates from vegetables to just plain not enough l-methylfolate..
     
    Marlène likes this.
  16. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd,
    That's very interesting that Hashi's is thought to be caused by b12 and/or folate deficiency. Do you have any good links to that? I have a friend with Hashi's, and her recent blood test showed high b12 and high folate. She doesn't supplement either one and she has b deficiency symptoms. She didn't see homocysteine on the test, unfortunately.
    She of course did not understand that high test b12 and folate levels could be from deficiencies. She actually got her most recent blood test because of swelling and maybe pain or tingling of the hands and feet. she said her doctor just keeps scratching his head.
     
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Violeta,

    I personally think that Hashimoto's thyroiditis is triggered by methyltrap. That can happen with high serum cobalamin but low cellular MeCbl. With the low MeCbl folate level is irrelevant because it is flushed from the cells.. It can actually be quite high because it isn't being used. The reason for that is all these hypersensitive responses; asthma, MCS, and auto-immunne appear to happen in methyltrap. And methyltrap can happen on one "level" and not another; very paradoxical.

    There are no links. This restoration of thyroid function has been reported and verified by test by a few people who were still in active phase. As far as the cause, I came across it in the course of reading. I've read thousands of peer reviewed papers and a whole lot of statements by doctors and others. I couldn't tell you where. And it was at least partly speculative. The thing is that I know of several, not a lot, of those that recovered function in weeks after starting the active b12/folate protocol. What made them stand out is that a lot more though they had a change in thyroid and were trying to micromanage thyroid levels daily and messed themselves up as the body doesn't adjust TSH that quickly. These were the ones I remember because testing proved a change.
     
    Marlène likes this.
  18. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

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    Edegem, Belgium
    Thank you everyone, I will have a closer look at your information and come back soon.
     
  19. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd,

    So I did go google it myself, which is what I should have done earlier, but I was busy:)
    Anyway, here's an article: http://www.drkendalstewart.com/wp-c...hylation-Overview-for-Professionals-10.11.pdf

    It's funny, my computer told me I visited that page last June. I don't remember.
     
  20. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Northcoast NSW, Australia

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