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Clarification on Fredd protocol please

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by joshi81, Dec 6, 2013.

  1. joshi81

    joshi81 Senior Member

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    Hi..i say sorry for the incoming questions but i'm italian, i can understand and write in english but i'm reading to much of this stuff about methylation in a language that is not mine so be patient :)

    I understood about all the supplement wich are basic, the fredd protocol (after basic supplements) consists in taking methylfolate, meb12 and adb12 right?

    The question are:
    Should i start methylfolate before b12s?
    Do i have to increase the dose of methylfolate slowly? if yes how much should i arrive to take in the end?
    Meb12 and adb12 should i start them together or how?
    And how much of each i should arrive to take in the end?

    I' m really sorry if these things maybe you have repeated many times but i am a bit confused after reading so many things in english so if someone could summarize answering to my questions would be very apreciated.
  2. skwag

    skwag

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    Those are good questions. Unfortunately, there are no clear answers.


    For me, starting them together was fine. I would double the dose every few days initially. The amount you need in the end is up to you to decide.


    DO YOU HAVE POTASSIUM ? Make sure you have some potassium. If methylation starts up you can expect a potassium deficiency in about three days.

    Edit: Please see Freddd's advice below. Edited to remove probable bad suggestions.
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2013
  3. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    Josh, I would encourage you to start at very small doses (smaller than 200 mcg) and increase little by little, over several months. You are more likely to have a positive response this way.
    Best wishes.
  4. joshi81

    joshi81 Senior Member

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    thank you, really, but for example... enzymatic therapy b12 is 1mg for each tablet .. to obtain 200 MCG ho small i have to cut the tablet?????? half tablet is 500 mg 1/4 is 250 mg how can i obtain 200 MCG???

    and about potassium...how much should i take? and just if i notice symptoms or it is better to take it in advantage?
  5. Brad

    Brad

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    First have some niacin on hand. The 3 or 4 times that I needed it, I opened a capsule and put some under my tongue. Every time it was related to the amount of mfolate I was taking and not the mB12 - but that's just me.
    Signs that I needed it was a heavy fog, irritability and a darkening of mood. Your signs of over-methylation may differ.

    Everyone will be different in terms of dose and how they respond. Those with COMT (I only have one ++ and it is not one of the big players) would not have been able to proceed at the same rate.

    I hope that I don't say anything that Freddd would take exception to here.
    I recommend going in the order of:
    MB12
    mfolate
    adB12
    l-carnitine fumerate.
    Also you will need to experiment with some add-ons. I depleted my probably already low B2 stores when I fired up methylation (I have a problem absorbing it), needed a bit of B6, biotin - I take quite a bit of it. zinc, lots of magnesium, omega 3, choline, some potassium, and probably others that I will remember after I post this.

    The Revised Methylation Protocol is more conservative in its approach than Freddd's.
    I started off with mB12 1000 mcg broken in 2 and taken twice a day. I had a high tolerance and soon was almost always sucking on one until my Dr got my on injectable.
    I started off the same day with mfolate 1000 mcg as well (didn't know about this site back then otherwise I would have waited a week - 10 days)
    I had some symptoms that I called "detox" and the reason is that I was (and still am) chelating mercury and the symptoms were the same. The worst of this passed in about 12 days. Some people stop during this part and start again slow.
    Before injectable mB12, I was more reliant on the mfolate than I am now and was up to 4000 - 5000 mcg a day under the tongue. I had by this time concluded that I didn't absorb it much better than B2. The half-life is around 3 hours and that was pretty much how I needed it. An increase in brain-fog was my signal. I had a sweet spot though...too much would also cause brain-fog.

    As my mB12 doses increased, my need for mfolate decreased. I am now back to 1000 mcg a day.

    On the other hand, I take 2 injections of mB12 daily and have yet to find my minimum effective dose - still ramping up.
    Once these two are set up within reason. That is when I would suggest adding the adB12.

    I have 8 mg tabs. The first one was a real "eye-opener". But after a day there was diminishing returns and before a week was through I was no longer getting the "lift". Still, I never slipped back to baseline either. Definite long-term gains. I still take it as Freddd suggests that along with zinc there is some anti-inflammatory response - particularly with the ONOO = peroxynitrite molecule perhaps.

    The last to add is the l-carnitine-fumerate = LCF. Once I had the other 3 in place, this is the one that moved me forward. I take 500 mg morning and night on an empty stomach. In another month or so I will experiment with the dose to make sure I have got this right.

    Listen to your body. While some people benefit from a conservative approach, some will have a higher tolerance for this. brad
    Christopher likes this.
  6. joshi81

    joshi81 Senior Member

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    thank you brad and i your opinion what is the best form of potassium to take?
  7. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    I don't have an opinion. It is usually sold as a simple salt and I can't imagine anyone screwing that up too badly :)
    brad
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Josh,

    To clarify one thing, with the sublingual use of the 1000mcg pill, held for 45-120 minutes typically 15-25% can be absorbed. A way to titrate to effect is to keep it under your lip until you are satisfied with the intensity, then chew and swallow. That immediately stops the absorption.

    Another way is just break up the tablet into crumbs, take a crumb or two each hour until you have a satisfactiory amount of neurological brightening. That is the aiming point. MeCbl by itself may give startup. If you start with 200mcg of Metafolin, its enough to get methylation startup and then immediately folate insufficiency. Then you titrate, maybe 200mcg each hour until the folate deficiency symptoms start to turn around. 200mcg of Metafolin will make you miserable.

    It can cause intense paradoxical folate deficiency symptoms, and at those low amounts you will likely be flipping in and out of methyltrap which is miserable. 1 1000mcg enzy and 1/4 a Anabol Dibencoplex capsule emptied along the lower lip and gum and held for 2 hours with any amount of Metafolin will usually start methylation in hours and cause a low potassium in 3 days and low folate in the same time. Many people need to titrate up to 1600-30,000mcg depending upon how much other folates they take and how poorly their body deals with them. The lower the dose the longer you keep your body in b12 and folate starvation mode. Some people keep the dose so low that they retrace the same territory every day, over and over and over, because they turn off healing whenever it starts.

    There will be an intensification of neurology symptoms and senses and any of the hundreds of symptoms of these deficiencies start changing and it can be unpleasant. The low potassium is genuinely dangerous. The symptoms of both are below to help sort out what is happening.

    Version 1.2 12/08/2013

    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset.
    Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (hydroxycobalamin).

    There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

    IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

    Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

    Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure
    Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


    Group 2a - Both

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation


    Group 2b – Either or both

    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue


    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

    These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

    Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have a near immediate increase in urine output.

    Old symptoms returning

    Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,

    Skin rashes, increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,

    Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms

    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,

    Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,.


    Longer term, very serious

    Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily


    Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset after photolytic breakdown.

    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2013
  9. joshi81

    joshi81 Senior Member

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    Thank you Fredd for all you wrote but in simple words... i didn't understand practically how to procede.
    if it is not much disturb for you can you explain to me as if i were a 10 years boy the steps i have to take?
    I mean for example tomorrow i'm going to start your protocol: DAY 1
    i start with methylcobalamin right? to know how much i have to take which are the signs i have to take attention to? and i have to do it just one a day? i mean i have to take methylcobalamyn just one a day?
    and when i have to add methylfolate and adb12...do u understand? i cannot understand the dinamic of integration :( i don't know if i'm stupid or what
    For example skwag few posts ago said that started all together adb12, methylb12 and metafolin but in this way how can i know when methylb12 is enough, or methyl folate o adb12 .. it's all so confusing or it's me that i'm not so cleere :I sob :(
  10. joshi81

    joshi81 Senior Member

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    anyone help me? i'm also trying to read the "howirecovered" site but there are different informations and often here in the post i read something and in that site there is written something different. Not only but wouldn'it be an idea to write a post "how to proceed" where to write simply and clearly how to proceed step by step? because in this way it is overwhelming to go and read mountains of posts in which there are a little of info here , a little there, then you read somenthing here and there there is written something different...please :I
  11. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    josh, Here's a brief outline posted today on another thread. It's not so easy to get it too simple because each of us must adapt to our own responses. As I read it, already there are things I do differently. I use potassium gluconate powder (NOW, from iherb), not the puny 99mg tablets listed here. ( I recently read that tablets are limited to 99mg to avoid stomach discomfort. It seems the powder does not cause the same problem. If it does, you can do as I do, adding it to a footbath.) I use Freddd's recommended AdB12, Dibencozide, instead of the Country Life listed here. Don't know if there are differences. Freddd has definitely found, in his ongoing experiential testing, that Enzymatic Therapies is the best MethylB12, as listed here. I'm also adding in my first link, the post of Freddd's that I've found the most succinct. The list of supps and how to add them is at the end of the post. This post also gives you a look at what might happen as the B12:folate relationship shifts, the donut-hole-insufficiency. I think you could read this daily and get more understanding every time. I've been working with it for 9 months, still find myself saying, "OH! So That's what he means..." I'm sorry this isn't easier. If my own brain was better, I'd create a pithy and concise version, but so far I'm only able to link to the threads I've found useful. Hope this helps. ahmo

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...t-hole-insufficiency.22614/page-2#post-345537

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ate-dose-on-fredd-protocol.26827/#post-410919

    Freddd’s Protocol – Getting Started

    as I understand it and in my own words. 9/27/13

    Assuming you already have the basics like Vitamin B Complex, C, D, calcium, magnesium, zinc and omega 3s in your supplements routine, start by testing:


    1. 1 capsule of L-carnitine fumarate on an empty stomach (available in about 400 – 800 mg capsules)
    If there are no new negative start up symptoms (like feeling super hyped & wired) keep taking it every day.

    If there are new negative start up symptoms (like feeling super hyped & wired), you’ll need to titrate up gradually until you’re comfortable with 1 capsule/day. That may mean taking 1/10 of a capsule. As your body gets use to having this long missing nutrient, you’ll gradually increase (titrate up) your daily amount to 1/5 capsule, then 1/2 a capsule etc. until you’re doing 1 capsule daily. You can take days or weeks to do this titrating. Don’t rush your body. When your body is use to 1 capsule of L-carnitine fumerate per day, continue that and start:

    2. 1 Enzymatic Therapy B12 Infusion (1,000 mcg MeB12) after breakfast, placing the tablet
    between upper lip and gum, for as long as it takes to dissolve. When your body is settled with
    this, start:

    3. 1 Solgar Folate (800 mcg Metafolin) with breakfast

    If there are no new start up symptoms (new headaches, rashes, irritabilities, anxieties,
    depressions, joint pains, muscle pains, insomnia, continue with this amount daily.

    If there are new negative start up symptoms (new headaches, rashes, irritabilities,
    anxieties, depressions, joint pains, muscle pains, insomnia) you’ll need to titrate up gradually until you’re comfortable with 1 capsule/day. Then continue the Folate and start:

    4. Country Life Active B-12 Dibencozide (3,000 mcg AdB12), after breakfast, 3 X week, placing
    the tablet between upper lip and gum, for as long as it takes to dissolve.

    5. Potassium (99 mg tablets) taken with a glass of water, as needed, anytime during the introduction of the previous 4 supplements, if new nausea, itching, heart palpitations, weakness, muscle spasms or cramps start happening. For some, several potassium tablets may be needed, several times a day.

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