Freddd Protocol: Brands and Doses

[sueami]

Thanks, Hip! Great resource list.

Yes, Pela, it is transdermal. If you search b12 transdermoil you'll find a thread with a user named @Lynn_M who has used this product. She speaks highly of it. I believe you rub it in thoroughly as you apply, so perhaps that preserves the mb12. It's a good question.

 

[aturtles]

@Hip, thank you -- this is great. However, I'm not (yet?) on injectables. Do you have any insight as to a source for B12 methylcobalamin and B12 adenosylcobalamin that is without additives, in some form that I might put in lip-pockets for slow absorption? I am guessing these B12s come as powder to the vitamin manufacturers, but maybe it's liquid? Is the injectable the source lab-created form?

For that matter, can the liquid be absorbed through the oral mucosa like tablets are? Im' sure someone has thought about all this, but I haven't found it (yet).

@sueami, I see your point! Thank you for explaining. I am eager to hear if it works well for you, if the absorption rate is truly so high. I hope you'll keep us posted.

 

[Hip]

@Hip, thank you -- this is great. However, I'm not (yet?) on injectables. Do you have any insight as to a source for B12 methylcobalamin and B12 adenosylcobalamin that is without additives, in some form that I might put in lip-pockets for slow absorption?

A very good product that I have used is Hydroxo-12 from Scientific Botanicals. This hydroxocobalamin liquid only contains one other ingredient, potassium sorbate, and is very potent at 1 mg (= 1,000 mcg) per drop, having 325 such drops in the 15 ml bottle. Costs around $45. This Hydroxo-12 can also be bought at various places; see here.

Most other B12 liquid brands are much weaker: they contain 1 mg of B12 per pipette dropperful, but not a highly concentrated 1 mg per drop.

Other brands of B12 liquid also typically contain citric acid as a preservative, which rapidly erodes off the tooth enamel, and so should not really be used on the gums.

I actually put two drops of the Hydroxo-12 liquid into each of my nasal cavities by placing a pipette into my nose with my head titled right back. The nasal mucous membranes are about 10 to 20 times better at absorbing B12 hydroxocobalamin than the oral mucous membranes (ref: here). You can use the Hydroxo-12 liquid intranasally in this way, but don't try putting any B12 liquid containing citric acid into your nasal cavities, as this will sting a lot.

Unfortunately Scientific Botanicals don't seem to sell any other B12 liquids apart from hydroxocobalamin.

You can get adenosylcobalamin, methylcobalamin and hydroxocobalamin liquid drops from Holistic Health International. These are also potent at 1 mg per drop, but they contain citric acid.


I know from first hand experience how quickly citric acid-containing B12 can erode your teeth. When I bought some Holistic Health International drops and used them on my gums, after around 10 days I suddenly found all my teeth incredibly sensitive and painful, and realized the citric acid had eroded away the tooth enamel at the gum line. Any food or drink I consumed caused immediate pain in all my teeth. I thought I might have ruined my teeth for ever, but fortunately, with the help of a fluoride daily mouthwash (which speeds up rebuilding of enamel), my teeth returned to normal after around 2 or 3 weeks. So the enamel will regrow, but you don't really want to be eroding it away with citric acid in the first place.

 

[aturtles]

@Hip, I thought that enamel didn't grow back. Hmm. As someone who has had severe tooth sensitivity at various times in my life -- greatly ameliorated by sensodine and flouride -- I know that it is not necessarily the same thing as enamel erosion.

A couple of people here have told me that the sensitivity from citric acid from the sublinguals is not damaging, according to their dentists -- but hey, even dentists can be wrong! Did your dentist confirm this for you, and tell you to stop using them? I'm very interested!

I quoted Freddd on this very topic earlier in this thread, too. I found this reassuring, but perhaps it's incorrect? Your thoughts? http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/freddd-protocol-brands-and-doses.32600/#post-503329

As for the b12s, thank you! I will look into Holistic Health International.

 

[Hip]

Tooth enamel is constantly being rebuilt using ingredients present in the saliva. This process is called tooth remineralization. Tooth enamel is mainly made from apatite (a mineral), and the component ingredients of apatite are in the saliva.

(Have you ever seen those Sensodyne ProNamel toothpaste adverts, in which they state that "once you loose your enamel it doesn't grow back"? That appears to be a barefaced lie!).

I did not show my dentist my painful teeth (because I was quite housebound at the time), but assumed that the pain must have come from enamel loss under the gum line, leading to exposed dentin pores (which are the cause of tooth sensitivity pain).


I had a quick Google, and this study found citric acid is even worse that phosphoric acid as regards tooth enamel erosion (both are found in soft drinks).

Did you ever do that experiment as a kid, putting one of your fallen out milk teeth into a glass of Coca Cola? I did that, and the tooth was almost entirely dissolved within three days!


But if you don't get any tooth sensitivity problems with your B12 drops, well then I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[aturtles]

I do get sensitivity. That's why I use sensodyne. Now, of course, I'm worried about enamel loss!

 

[Critterina]

This was how it was explained to me by my dentist: If ALL your tooth enamel is gone, there's nothing to remineralize. Just exposed dentin. As long as there is enamel, you can remineralize it.

 

[aturtles]

@Critterina, thank you! Now I have hope for my enamel.

The burning question in my mind is, is citric acid from the sublinguals going to cause me teeth damage, or is it just discomfort, as Freddd says? This would seem to be a question that someone on the forum would have definitively answered at some point or another, not just from sensation but from a dentist.

What do you think?

 

[Critterina]

I still have contact with my old dentist (ok, former dentist - he would object to "old") on FaceBook. Why don't I ask him? OK, I asked him. Let's see what he says.

I know that citric acid is present in citrus fruits, and I've seen on TV people claiming that it was damaging their teeth...but it is a weak acid, and soft drinks are likely to do a lot more damage in my opinion. Isn't it also an essential chemical in the Krebs Cycle, so it would be in every cell of everything we eat, in smaller quantity?

 

[Hip]

The burning question in my mind is, is citric acid from the sublinguals going to cause me teeth damage, or is it just discomfort, as Freddd says? This would seem to be a question that someone on the forum would have definitively answered at some point or another, not just from sensation but from a dentist.

There is a whole thread on this subject if you fancy reading it:
CAUTION: Oral B12 Methylcobalamin Can Erode Tooth Enamel

 

[Critterina]

Thanks, @Hip, but "not really" that interested. I asked my former dentist. He is a professional whose knowledge I trust. There are some great threads on here, but there's also a lot of misinformation. Tooth enamel doesn't have nerve endings. Pain is no indication of something being in the process of damaging enamel.

 

[Hip]

Pain is no indication of something being in the process of damaging enamel.

From what I read on dental websites, sensitive teeth can be caused by enamel loss, when the enamel is eroded by acid:

What causes sensitive teeth?

Toothbrush and/or toothpaste damage may be the most frequent cause of sensitive teeth. By brushing too hard and/or using abrasive toothpaste, you may be removing tooth structure at the necks of your teeth.

Other things which can cause sensitive teeth include:

acid erosion,
gum recession,
gum disease,
tooth grinding,
tooth bleaching, and
a cracked tooth or filling.

This can result in pain, especially to cold drinks, food, and air, but also to physical pressure, hot, sweet and sour.

The reason for the pain is exposed dentine – the inner substance of the tooth, which is covered by enamel. The enamel can get quite thin, especially where the tooth meets the root (at the gumline). The root is covered by a substance called cementum, which is easily worn away. Dentine contains little tunnels (tubules) that link to the nerves on the inside of the tooth, and when dentine is exposed, these nerves are easily stimulated, resulting in pain.

Source: here.

 

[garyfritz]

@Hip, thanks for the list, but note that all the products I see from goldpharma.com are cyanocobalamin.

Several of the methylB12 products are 1mg/ml, and several are extremely expensive. E.g. $99 for 30ml from superiorpeptide.com. That product is only 1mg/ml, so it's $3 per mg! USHCGshots.com wants $350 for 30mg of B12 !??

The Kingsway Compounding one is interesting, 25mg/ml, and pre-loaded syringes. But Oz only, sigh.

@pela, it's a good question. Yes it is transdermal. I'll ask them about light exposure.

@aturtles, one other delivery method is liquid. Someone reported good results with nasal administration of Mega Drops, 1mg per drop.

 

[Hip]

@Hip, thanks for the list, but note that all the products I see from goldpharma.com are cyanocobalamin.

Have a look further down on the goldpharma.com page, where you will see B12 hydroxocobalamin.

 

[aturtles]

@Critterina @amho @whodathunkit @Hip @Crux

Anyone tried bio-alternatives.net methyl-b12 since @Crux did in 2012? (See below.)

Bio-alternatives version is here, and lists no citric acid: http://www.bio-alternatives.net/b12.htm

About a year ago, I tried to find a type without fillers and flavorings, and tried Bio-Alternatives brand, which contained only methylcobalamin and purified water. I began to tank on it.

 

[Katty]

Needing some help finding a methylfolate that I can use. All of the methylfolate tablets have silca/silicon dioxide, and I am sensitive to it. I can buy a capsule instead of a tablet, but the smallest dose is 400mcg, which makes it hard to start lower and titrate up. I'm hoping to find an easier method than opening the capsules and measuring out 1/4 of the powder.
Thanks in advance for suggestions!

 

[Lynn_M]

Since Sueami brought up my name, I thought I'd give an update on my use of transdermal B12 oil. I've been using one daily pump dose of the mB12/aB12 combo since April 2013. I had a GPL OAT In June 2013 and another in December 2014. Both tests showed my MMA to be right around the midway mark. I also have had very recent bioscan testing, and it showed that I had sufficient B12 in me. So I believe it's working for me. I have a number of homozygous and heterozygous MTHFR mutations, including homo A1298C and many others, but not C677T. I have 2 MTRR heterozygous mutations. I do not have CFS, but was definitely low energy.

Here is some of my history, to put my transdermal B12 experience in perspective. I had previously tested low in B12 in 2008, on a Spectracell Micronutrient test. B12 was the only specific nutrient I tested deficient in, in addition to being deficient in total antioxidant function, but not any of the individual antioxidants. According to Rich, my low total antioxidant level could be explained by my +/+ GSTP1. So my diet and supplement regime, despite being good and with ample meat in it, still left me deficient in B12.

After my 2008 test results, I started using daily sublingual B12, letting it quickly disappear under my tongue. I started taking Jarrow sublingual B12 and adenosylB12 (Country LIfe?) in summer 2012, using Freddd's technique of parking the lozenge between my upper gum and cheek. During that period, I had no testing of my B12 levels. However, when I went to the dentist in October 2014, I was told I needed inlays on 5 molar teeth because of erosion of the enamel around previously placed resin fillings. I hadn't had any new cavities in the 11 years prior to that, and that was only one cavity. I attribute the new decay to having the acid-based sublingual B12 in contact with my teeth for 45 minutes every day, because it felt like it was etching my teeth.

Someone asked about light damage occurring with the transdermal B12 oil. I don't see how any light could reach the B12 oil while it is in the pump, because the contents are shielded by a silver coating on the outside of the pump. Once you pump it out onto the skin, it takes maybe 10-15 seconds to rub it into the skin. That would be the only exposure to light. Since their animal tests are showing good results, it doesn't seem likely that any degradation occurs in that very brief period. As I understand it, the B12 molecules are nano-sized and embedded in the oil solution, so I would think that would also serve to protect the B12 from light degradation.

I order 6 pumps from B12oils.com at a time, and at this quantity, the per pump cost, including shipping to Nebraska, is $42. Each pump lasts me around 2 months. I have been assured that the B12 oil will still be potent by the time I'm using that sixth pump. And the transdermal oil B12 is a heck of a lot cheaper than bills for dental restoration.

For those of you needing high doses of B12, you might need to check your Vitamin B2 levels. Vitamin B2 is needed as a cofactor for metabolizing B12.

 

[garyfritz]

@Lynn_M, sounds very similar to me. I also have several MTHFR variants but not A677C, one homo MTRR instead of your two hetero, etc. I haven't done a GPL OAT but I just did a Genova MAP test, and it showed just about everything (including MMA) to be in the green.

Fortunately for me, I read concerns about acids in sublinguals so I avoided those. Haven't been to the dentist in a while but hopefully I won't get any unpleasant surprises when I do. Now I'm totally on the oil so there should be no further problems.

I wish I could get by with 1 pump/day like you do! Each vial of oil lasts me less than 3 weeks.

Oh, and I take over 100mg/day of B2. The MAP test said my B2 and B3 were borderline. Strangely it said I had a "high need" for B1 and should be taking 50mg/day -- but I'm already taking 100mg/day !!

 

[CloudD790]

I'm going to try Nova Nutritions LCF; its cheapest.
See:
http://www.amazon.com/L-Carnitine-1...454770631&sr=8-13&keywords=carnitine+fumarate

Will report back when I introduce it, if it has any effect.

 

[Johnmac]

My teeth rotted quite a lot after 6 months on the FP, so I've switched to transdermal (TD) for the B12s & the m-folate.

I've been able to drop the folate dosage 1/3. So - unless sublingual m-folate never did anything in the first place, & my gains in functioning are all down to the B12s (which I doubt but can't be sure of) - TD seems better for me.

Yes, Country Life mB12 is hopelessly frangible: in the mouth, it lasts about 10 minutes for me too. TD under a bandage keeps it in the one place.