Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by aturtles, Sep 16, 2014.
A place to discuss the various Freddd Active B12/Folate Protocol supplements, doses, and brands.
This is a minimalist guide to Deadlock Quartet brands, which reflects my best understanding of @Freddd's recommendations. I assembled this from various posts, @ahmo's Guide, and my own experience. Where multiple brands have been recommended, I listed them in most-recent Freddd posted preference order. I show additional brand recommendations where I think especially useful, and explain why.
I realize this is incomplete without dosages, so I recommend @ahmo's Guide for more details (see sigs). Do let me know if I've made any mistakes. Comments welcome.
1. L-Methylfolate: Various brands from Solgar to Deplin (Rx).
My understanding is that as long as it is actually L-Methylfolate, brand is not significant.
2. Active B12s. Quality appears to be highly variable, and since it must be absorbed through oral mucosa, brand does matter.
2.A. Methylcobalamin / MeCbl (AKA: Methyl-B12, mb12, methylb12)
Enzymatic Therapy B12 infusion 1 mg sublingual
Country Life Methyl B12 5 mg sublingual -- MUST be Lot #6304, which is usually not determinable from pictures or queries. My most recently obtained was Lot #14D755A, which dissolves too quickly to be useful.
Jarrow Formulas 5mg Methyl B-12. Freddd says this isn't as effective as it used to be, but for high-dose B-12 consumption, I don't see a good alternative.
2.B. Adocobalamin / AdoCbl (AKA: Dibencozide Coenzymated B-12, dibencozide, Adb12, adenosylb12, Adenosyl B12)
Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex (AdenoB12) 10mg
Source Naturals Dibencozide B-12
3. Potassium (AKA K+): Some say it doesn't matter what kind you use. Others disagree.
Potassium Citrate. Brand seems irrelevant. NOTE: can be caustic to stomach lining, so is sold max 100mg.
Potassium Gluconate, NOW Brand.
For those of us taking multiple grams of potassium a day, pills can be challenging. I prefer Potassium Gluconate powder. When in potassium deficit I find it works fast and feels gentler.
4. L-Carnitine Fumarate (for some, Acetyl-L Carnitine works better; see Guide)
Dr’s Best 855mg
Source Naturals L-Carnitine Fumarate 500mg
@Sherpa, thanks for that. It hadn't occurred to me, the problem of citric acid and teeth. I have noticed some increased sensitivity in my teeth. I wonder if that's why.
The _Enzymatic_ B12 1mg is not sour. I would use it if I were looking for that dose.
But I am at 15mg daily, so I take Jarrow B12 5mg. It clearly has citric acid, but probably less than Jarrow 1mg. You might want to consider breaking that in pieces instead of the Jarrow B12 1mg.
Freddd changed his recommendation away from Jarrow last year. Perhaps not as effective. I'd be happy to have something more effective at a larger dose tab. Suggestions?
I very much wish we could obtain B12 for oral mucosa absorption that had no additives. Any thoughts on that?
@Sherpa, I just now serendipitously found this:
I asked my dentist to look at my gums last week for any signs of damage. I've been using B12 in gums for >1year now. He said they look fine. In my past I've had sensitive teeth/gums, but not recently nor during this protocol.
I have had good results with Country Life 5mg "Methyl B12." I believe that is the ONLY CL B12 you should use, because the other sizes have folic acid, cyanocobolamin, and/or acid. CL 5mg contains no acids or sugar. The only major "other" ingredient in CL 5mg is Xylitol, a "non-fermentable sugar alcohol." It's supposed to be actually beneficial to tooth enamel. (It starves cavity-causing bacteria and allows the enamel to remineralize, see wikipedia.) CL 5mg does dissolve pretty quickly under the tongue, however you can tuck it between your lip and gum and it lasts quite a while.
Some people have reported good results with nasally-applied B12 drops, but I don't think anyone has tried it recently.
Some of us are going to experiment with topically-applied B12 oils.
@garyfritz, thank you! My problem with Country Life 5mg (Lot 14D755A) is that it dissolves in-lip pocket mucosa in 5 or 10 minutes under best circumstances; as I recall @Freddd suggests 45 minutes to get sufficient absorption. So I use it, but am not sure it's doing anything, and use the Jarrow to be sure I'm getting the B12 I need. (At my doses of L-MTHF, I need high doses of B12.)
Are you using a different lot? Do you perhaps have a trick for making it last longer?
I'm quite interested in the topical B12. Are you trying it now? Do you have a link for that?
@aturtles, my current CL is lot 14D756A. It dissolves in 5-10 min under my tongue, but it lasts much longer between my cheek and gum (just like a chaw of tobaccy ), probably at least 20-30 minutes.
@sueami and I live 1/4 apart and we're going to split an order of the oil to get a discount. We'll report back with results.
@garyfritz, that's what I'm doing, too. At your recommendation, I'll try it again. Can't wait to hear back about the oil.
So, I emailed the b12oils.com folk with a few questions about their methylb12 oil and got the following response:
Thanks for contacting us about the B12oils.
The bottles are 15 ml pump bottles. Each "squirt" from the pump delivers 0.25 ml per pump. This means that there are around 60 doses per bottle. We always slightly over-fill the bottle.
The methylB12 is dissolved at 3.0 mg/ml so each squirt delivers 0.75 mg per dose. This is very close to the suggested dose by several authors, however no-one has really titrated how much you need.
The feed-back that we have received suggested that the dose is pretty much about right.
It is very hard to tell how much is aborbed. Experiments done previously suggest that the absorption is over 80%, however these studies have not been performed in humans. We are currently running a clinical trial to compare the B12oils with injected and oral. The trial is going well, however, recruitment has been very slow and we have no data as yet.
We have been very aware of the light sensitivity of both methyl and adenosyl B12 and we have endeavoured to protect the solutions from light particularly during formulation and storage. The oils are provided in a silver coated bottle, which has been selected specifically to stop light absorption. The high concentration of the B12 also helps to protect it from light degradation. Storage studies of the formulated solution stored at room temperature in normal glass show no significant change in the methylB12 over 6 months. There is thus no need to wrap the bottles in foil or to refridgerate the material (in fact we suggest that you should store the oils at room temperature). In addition, we have made a deliberate decision to make smaller batches of material to ensure that the material is as "fresh" as possible.
In order to apply the oils you simply rub them into warm skin. Your skin lipids "freeze" at 61oF and hence you skin must be warm to apply the material.
Reports that we have received from mums with kids with ASD report that the kids are very receptive to the oils and the massage-like application of the material. They are also very interested in the red colour.
You do not say if you have CFS/ME or ASD or your mehylation mutation status. We have a consultant who is happy to look at your genetics if you have 23andme profiles. We are currently providing the service free of charge if you are interested. We believe that the analysis may be helpful to determine what nutritional support you may need and also this analysis has been particularly helpful in explaining/understanding symptomology.
So, each bottle contains 60 doses of 750mcg each (with an estimated absorption of 80 percent.)
I'm wanting to increase my mb12 so that I can increase my folate. I see freddd doses himself at a 2-1 MB12 to folate ratio, and I'm pretty sure I need more folate but I'm barely matching my folate in absorbed mb12 right now, and I don't want to be constantly dissolving tablets in my mouth.
I'm thinking at two pumps a day, I can get 1.2mg absorbed and the bottle lasts a month. The cost is comparable to my 1mg mb12 shots I take daily, and maybe even less if Gary and I order a total of four bottles between us.
I think it's worth the experiment. The website, if you haven't found it already, is www.b12oils.com
@sueami, thank you so much! I'm a bit confused, though. Maybe you can help me understand.
How does this compare to absorption of a 5mg sublingual?
I am currently at 15mg L-methylfolate, and trying to keep my B12 up there, too, with 10mg methylB12/MeCbl tabs and about the same AdoCbl per day. I doubt that Freddd means *absorbed* 1-2 MeCbl to L-MTHF. That would be... rather a lot, no?
So what is the comparison between the oil -- assuming their absorption estimation is correct -- and the tabs?
Actually, I think he does -- because his 30 mg/day of mb12 is injected (he also takes 15mg of folate in tablet form). It's possible that that is a need unique to him, to have twice as much b12 as folate. I keep meaning to ask on the high dose methylfolate thread what ratio other people are taking.
I believe I've read Freddd estimating sublingual mb12 absorption to be 10-30 percent. He's written about losing ground on the CountryLife 5mg because it suddenly became much less potent for him, compared to the Enzymatic Therapy.
I rather blindly guess that I'm getting 25 percent of my enzy therapy tablets absorbed and figure that 4 of them makes 1 mg. I have absolutely no guesses for the CL 5mg tablets. I think I recall Freddd estimating their absorption at 10 percent, but Gary and others say they still work well enough for them. I wonder if they would deliver a better dosage as a suppository, as that would eliminate the problem of their dissolving too quickly. Might be worth an experiment at some point.
So, with some very rough guess work, I'd say each spray of that b12 oil, at 80 percent of 750mcg delivers 600mcg absorbed. Equivalent to 2ish Enymatic Therapy tablets?
It's possible the CLs are losing effectiveness for me too, since I seem to have to keep ratcheting my doses up. I moved up to 20mg quickly, and got great results at that level for a while. Lately the results aren't as good at that level and sometimes I need more CL to keep the symptoms at bay. I just don't know if that's because the CL is losing effectiveness (and I don't understand why it would do that, unless they changed the formulation), or if something is changing in ME.
I don't get it how you are able to have CL dissolving in minutes. Mine still has redness in it after 2 hrs in my gum. And the pasty residue never goes away without me scraping/brushing it away.
Under my tongue, it triggers enough saliva that it dissolves pretty quickly, 10 min or so. But if I wake in the night with the heebie-jeebies and take one, sometimes I'll relax and fall asleep even before it dissolves -- and then the residue is still there the next morning. Apparently saliva flow slows down when you're asleep so you don't drown yourself!
In my gum, it lasts a lot longer. Maybe 30-60 minutes. I haven't done it much in my gum because the lozenges are big enough to be somewhat uncomfortable, and it's working under my tongue. Maybe I wouldn't need as much if I always tucked it into my gum. (And that is the THIRD time I've accidentally mistyped "into my bum" !! Maybe my brain is telling me I should try it as a suppository!!! )
There was a whole thread on alternative delivery methods of b12. That is indeed a viable one!
@ahmo, It could be a different lot #, then. The one Freddd was recommending was, and I suspect you can't get it any more. Or I could have a strange mouth. Donno, but it falls apart like tissue paper for me unless I don't move my mouth. (I can eat around the Jarrow in my upper lip and it stays viable!)
@garyfritz, though, hmm! Maybe I'll try your approach at night. The less I move my mouth, the longer it lasts. Thanks for the idea!
@sueami, thank you for laying that out for me! Absorbed makes it a much harder process, doesn't it. It seems to me that at the high doses I'm aiming for (10-15mg/day), the oil isn't going to be cost effective. Am I missing something? (Probably!)
Other sources for methylcobalamin? I spent some time this morning looking for sources of methylcobalamin without additives, or in bulk. Does anyone know where we could get the powder (or what?) that the vitamin manufacturers themselves use? At the doses we are talking about, for sublingual/lip, wouldn't it be better to get our hands on the source substance?
The oil is more expensive per dose, perhaps 2-3 times more expensive, depending on sales/discounts for each. But it does physically open up the ability to absorb more. If I want to get closer to five mg a day absorbed, I can do my 1 mg shot that my doc prescribes, two squirts of the oils at 1.2 mg, and then I still have to dissolve around 11 enzy therapy tabs a day. Oy.
I have wondered if injectable mb12 shots are available w/o prescription anywhere. I will try to talk my doc into increasing my subq dosage after a month or two more on this current regimen. He is conservative about amounts and doesn't believe more than 1.6mg of folate is ever necessary. I don't have much to argue with him on that, as I can't find other methylation doc advice on the web that touts high-dose b12/folate anywhere. Just some strangers on the internet , which is hardly going to carry much weight with him. I wonder if @Hip might know of sources, as he's compiled a nice list of bulk supplements previously.
Is the oil a transdermal oil? if so doesn't the Mb12 break down quickly when exposed to light?
I have a list of B12 injections for sale (mostly prescription-free):
B12 hydroxocobalamin injections:
http://goldpharma.com/search/vitamin B12/ — the cheapest
http://www.blueskydrugs.com/Product/Vitamin B12 Oral Solution
https://www.canadadrugs.com/products/cobalin-h/1000mcg-ml/32643 (requires prescription)
http://www.NorthWestPharmacy.com/productsearch.aspx?drugid=73684 (requires prescription)
http://www.epharmacy.com.au/product.asp?id=68576 (requires prescription)
B12 methylcobalamin injections:
http://shop.kingswaycompounding.com.au/compounding/methylb12.html (Australia only)
B12 adenosylcobalamin injections:
The first source above (goldpharma.com) seem the cheapest, and they are reliable too (but may no longer ship to the USA).
You can also try a Google Site Search
Separate names with a comma.