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Folic Acid vs. Folinic Acid

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by slayadragon, Feb 22, 2012.

  1. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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    I was under the impression from some of the discussion here that the form of folate present in produce is folinic acid. When I've done a cursory web search though, it seems to be suggesting that this is folic acid.

    Basically, I'd like to know if the form of folate in vitamins or fortified foods is different than what is in produce.

    Thanks much for any help folks can provide.

    Best, Lisa
     
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lisa,

    "Enriched" foods have folic acid added. Natural fruits and veggies have a substantial percentage of folinic acid. A lot of people use "folic acid" as synonomous with "folate". This kind of sloppiness of language can make understanding difficult.
     
  3. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Slaya.

    Natural foods do not contain folic acid. It is an oxidized form of folate that has a long shelf life and is relatively inexpensive, and has thus been the main commercial folate supplement. It is also the form that is added to grain products in the U.S. and some other countries. However, people differ by a factor of five in their ability to convert folic acid to tetrahydrofolate, so that it can be used by the cells. If it is not converted, it stays in the blood and competes with the active forms of folate for transport into the cells. Also, there is some evidence that it suppresses the activity of natural killer cells and may increase the risk of cancer, though this is not considered to be proven.
    Vegetables do contain folinic acid, as well as 5-methyl tetrahydrofolate. The latter is the main form of folate in the natural foods of the average diet, apart from the fortified foods.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  4. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I've been dealing with a wired, anxious, and overstimulated feeling for the past three months ever since my tooth with an amalgam broke. I've been trying to pin down what's causing my symptoms. Aside from metal exposure, it seems I'm sensitive to the supplements used for methylation. I first discovered this after a reaction to Jarrow's B Right which contained methylfolate. I don't understand why I reacted because I was taking a lot of folic acid which is supposed to block methylfolate and folinic acid. I'm trying to figure out what's causing my wired symptoms because there was a period where I was feeling better. It was sort of a relaxed, "stoned" feeling which some people might not like, but it was much more preferable to the wired feeling.

    I've been checking the levels of natural folate in foods i'm consuming (not added folic acid) and it turns out there's a lot of it in healthy foods. I also read that probiotics can produce active folate so I've stopped taking them for now. Am I heading in the right direction? I don't really know what else to do at this point.
     
  5. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Priobiotics are tricky. If I recall correctly bacteria can create dozens of different folates, including methyl folate. Folinic acid is plant folate. Methyl folate is animal folate - the best source is possibly meat. Folic acid should be considered a drug not a vitamin. The vitamin for humans is 5 methyl tetrahydrofolate.
     
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  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus,

    That "stimulated" feeling" is part of healing turning on. As you balance the MeCbl with AdoCbl, l-methylfolate and l-carnitine fumarate, the healing will turn on for all 4 or 5 levels of it. The "simulated" feel fades as healing progresses. That is usually the feeling of the nervous system working bettter and healing. Avoidling this mild stimulation sensation is avoiding healing. The "relaxed stoned" feeling is the feeling of a failing nervous system.


    That is my experience and that of most of those who have healed. Anything you do is at your own risk. One of the most shocking things in reviewing hundreds of journal articles is to find that almost everybody who actually has healing turn on in b12 and folate research has to drop out of the studies becasue of the unrecognized clinical path of healing and not dealing with the induced hypokalemia causing intolerable side effects.
     
  7. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Thanks Fred,

    I appreciate your advice. You and Rich seem to know more about methylation than most people here. It's good that you're here to share your experience and relay your observations of other people's experiences. However, I still know my body better than anyone else and when I've ignored what it was telling me I've suffered. I was experiencing much more than mild stimulation though including severe heart palpitations. And I've never experienced a "stoned" feeling before except when I used to do drugs and that was over 7 years ago.

    As I said in my previous post I'm still trying to pin down the cause of my symptoms, but one thing I've read is that the methylation can initiate detoxification in the body. I assume this is what you're referring to as "healing", but this can be a double-edged sword as many people in a weakened state are unable to eliminate the toxins being released. Since I have mercury issues I'm being very cautious. The last time I experienced the overstimulation was a few years ago through various attempts to detox. Rich explains this better than I can:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ethylate-mercury-and-other-heavy-metals.7687/
     
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus,

    Now that heart palpitation thing is often caused by low potassium along with a lot of other symtpoms usualy called "detox" As hypokalemia they can be relieved in hours. As "detox" they can kill you becasue you don't take care of the hypokalemia. Also, twice a day b-complex is also somethoines the key to stopping the palpitations. But in connection with active b12 and l-methylfolate and such it is almoast always low potassium. I say that as a systems analyst only. You have to take ypur own responsibility. In my experience if you follow the flags of healing, and hypokalemia is one of them, you will be more likely to actually have a chance to recover. Detox is 99% something else. It is almost always hypokalemia and/or paradoxical folate deficiency. Detox as commonly explained is 99% nonsense. If I'm right and you try those other things you may be reasoanably recovered in a year or two. The "detox" hypothesis doesn't lead to that.


    TRANSLATION OF POPULAR DESCRIPTIVE TERMS TO PRACTICAL CORRECTIONS

    During “methylation” treatments for FMS, CFS, ME, MS. Cures or long term remissions can occur if the clues are understood and followed. Also suggestive of possible ways to detect impending MS, ALS and Parkinson’s 10-20 years before diagnosis and hopefully prevent.

    There are several popular nutritional treatments and variations for FMS, ME, CFIDS, CFS and several other syndrome names. There is at least one study being conducted for use in MS of exactly the same nutrients because people are having success on them. Many of the same nutritional supplements may be taken in the various programs and by people in general just trying to be healthy.

    Under the banner of “partial methylation block” theory there are a number of programs that center on several forms of cobalamin and of folate with additional vitamins, minerals and supplements. The number and completeness of those other items determine if it is the “full methylation protocol” or “simplified methylation protocol” (SMP). Under the banner of “Functional Deficiency Diseases” which include “active b12 deficiencies (4 deficiencies)” and “induced or paradoxical folate deficiency” there is the “Active b12 and folate protocol” (ABP). Whatever names these diseases are called they deal with a universe of symptoms that include up to 400 symptoms and signs, depending upon granularity (ie “peripheral neuropathy” encompasses dozens of possible symptoms and signs). They are in several main categories. They might be grouped as endothelial, epithelial, immune, neurological, blood, and other tissues. Or they might be classified as Skin, GI, lung, heart, veins, arteries, neurological –brain, neurological – cord, neurological - peripheral, neurological – other, neuro-psyc, blood, mood, personality etc.


    WHEN TREATED

    All of these are flags indicating healing is occurring. Minimizing nervous system response reduces or stops healing, especially of the nervous system. Minimizing ATP response prevents normalization of biochemistry.

    1 - Low potassium, almost everybody when healing starts. – often called “detox”

    2 - Low folate symptoms even with small doses of Metafolin – often called “detox”

    3 - Nervous system activation, everything is perceived as more intense – often called “detox”

    4 – ATP activation, everything is more energetic and intense – often called “detox”



    Whatever distinctions are made, a key characteristic is that symptoms, once well developed, of these syndromes will include multiple tissue types, multiple systems. To the casual observer they appear to be not connected. After all what do blood abnormalities, eczema, irritable bowel syndrome, daily nausea and vomiting, severe fatigue, muscle atrophy, asthma, hypersensitive nervous system responses, muscle pains, MCS, mood and personality changes, widespread body pain, peripheral neuropathy, poly neuropathies, burning bladder, poor immune response, FMS, CFS, autoimmune response, raspy voice, unable to focus eyes, faded vision, multi sensory hallucinations and many others have in common? They all share a common set of nutritional deficiency causes. Some will argue that these are not “absolute deficiencies” but rather “functional deficiencies”. For treatment purposes that doesn’t matter unless one is trying to restrict access to treatment (insurance won’t cover)



    The more severely affected a person is the harder hitting the vitamins are when started. There are several initial responses that may occur. In the popular terminology most of them are lumped together under the term “DETOX” reaction or response. These responses may start in minutes to days depending up many circumstances.



    The supplements being considered here are methylcobalamin, adenosylcobalamin, hydroxycobalamin, cyanocobalamin, folic acid, folinic acid, Metafolin-methylfolate, SAM-e, L-carnitine, glutathione, NAC (N-acetyl cysteine), Cerefolin-NAC, Whey, Metanx, Deplin.

    More rarely Vitamins D – A - C, magnesium, zinc, p5p



    Glutathione, NAC, Cerefolin-NAC, whey are all glutathione or glutathione precursors. The NAC typically overpowers the Cerefolin completely.

    Metafolin, methylfolate, Deplin are all methylfolate

    Metanx is Metafolin, methylb12 and P5P

    B12 forms, in order of effectiveness and likelihood of causing the responses listed here are methylcbl, adenosylcbl, hydroxycbl, cyanocbl



    Typically several of these symptoms will appear suddenly with more appearing and worsening over time if corrections are not made. While these groups of symptoms are called “detox” by some alternative practitioners and many people otherwise knowledgeable about vitamins and supplements, depending upon what theories they are operating under, use this term. Typically they are working on a “toxin” theory of CFS/FMS/ME/MCS etc and that these vitamins and supplements mobilize the toxins which then cause all sorts of symptoms in the groups listed. As the “translations” are made it is clear that actual “detox” if it exists, has nothing to do with these symptoms and they can be dangerous to ignore. If it is “detox” in an actual sense, then it is in what is left after these other things are accounted for and/or corrected, perhaps 5-10% of the total initial number. Also, co-morbidities often show up in this way..

    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with cyanocobalamin it is very common with methylb12 and adensosylb12 and less so with hydroxycobalamin..

    IBS – Steady constipation , Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum, Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness, Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), Increased pulse rate, Increased blood pressure, Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.

    Group 2a - Both

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation

    Group 2b – Either or both

    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue

    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract, increased hypersensitive responses , Skin rashes, Increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores, Coated tongue, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, Increase irritability, Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Old symptoms returning, Heart palpitations, Bleeding easily.



    Group 4 - Hydroxycbl onset, degraded methylcbl onset, methylcbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.


    Group 3 symptoms, induced paradoxical folate deficiency or insufficiency are corrected quickly with titrated doses of Metafolin, methylb12 and adenosylb12. If glutathione (precursors) are the cause then larger doses of Metafolin, 7.5-15mg,or maybe more are needed. Different tissues are affected at different levels of methylfolate, it comes or goes in stages. Very strong dose proportionate characteristics are present. Serum folate levels may be high or even very high despite Metafolin responsive deficiency/insufficiency symptoms.

    Group 1 symptoms respond readily to potassium. The symptoms and response to potassium may occur at a serum level of 4.3 or less.

     
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  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City



    TRANSLATION OF POPULAR DESCRIPTIVE TERMS TO PRACTICAL CORRECTIONS

    During “methylation” treatments for FMS, CFS, ME, MS. Cures or long term remissions can occur if the clues are understood and followed. Also suggestive of possible ways to detect impending MS, ALS and Parkinson’s 10-20 years before diagnosis and hopefully prevent.

    There are several popular nutritional treatments and variations for FMS, ME, CFIDS, CFS and several other syndrome names. There is at least one study being conducted for use in MS of exactly the same nutrients because people are having success on them. Many of the same nutritional supplements may be taken in the various programs and by people in general just trying to be healthy.

    Under the banner of “partial methylation block” theory there are a number of programs that center on several forms of cobalamin and of folate with additional vitamins, minerals and supplements. The number and completeness of those other items determine if it is the “full methylation protocol” or “simplified methylation protocol” (SMP). Under the banner of “Functional Deficiency Diseases” which include “active b12 deficiencies (4 deficiencies)” and “induced or paradoxical folate deficiency” there is the “Active b12 and folate protocol” (ABP). Whatever names these diseases are called they deal with a universe of symptoms that include up to 400 symptoms and signs, depending upon granularity (ie “peripheral neuropathy” encompasses dozens of possible symptoms and signs). They are in several main categories. They might be grouped as endothelial, epithelial, immune, neurological, blood, and other tissues. Or they might be classified as Skin, GI, lung, heart, veins, arteries, neurological –brain, neurological – cord, neurological - peripheral, neurological – other, neuro-psyc, blood, mood, personality etc.



    WHEN TREATED

    All of these are flags indicating healing is occurring. Minimizing nervous system response reduces or stops healing, especially of the nervous system. Minimizing ATP response prevents normalization of biochemistry.

    1 - Low potassium, almost everybody when healing starts. – often called “detox”

    2 - Low folate symptoms even with small doses of Metafolin – often called “detox”

    3 - Nervous system activation, everything is perceived as more intense – often called “detox”

    4 – ATP activation, everything is more energetic and intense – often called “detox”



    Whatever distinctions are made, a key characteristic is that symptoms, once well developed, of these syndromes will include multiple tissue types, multiple systems. To the casual observer they appear to be not connected. After all what do blood abnormalities, eczema, irritable bowel syndrome, daily nausea and vomiting, severe fatigue, muscle atrophy, asthma, hypersensitive nervous system responses, muscle pains, MCS, mood and personality changes, widespread body pain, peripheral neuropathy, poly neuropathies, burning bladder, poor immune response, FMS, CFS, autoimmune response, raspy voice, unable to focus eyes, faded vision, multi sensory hallucinations and many others have in common? They all share a common set of nutritional deficiency causes. Some will argue that these are not “absolute deficiencies” but rather “functional deficiencies”. For treatment purposes that doesn’t matter unless one is trying to restrict access to treatment (insurance won’t cover)



    The more severely affected a person is the harder hitting the vitamins are when started. There are several initial responses that may occur. In the popular terminology most of them are lumped together under the term “DETOX” reaction or response. These responses may start in minutes to days depending up many circumstances.



    The supplements being considered here are methylcobalamin, adenosylcobalamin, hydroxycobalamin, cyanocobalamin, folic acid, folinic acid, Metafolin-methylfolate, SAM-e, L-carnitine, glutathione, NAC (N-acetyl cysteine), Cerefolin-NAC, Whey, Metanx, Deplin.

    More rarely Vitamins D – A - C, magnesium, zinc, p5p



    Glutathione, NAC, Cerefolin-NAC, whey are all glutathione or glutathione precursors. The NAC typically overpowers the Cerefolin completely.

    Metafolin, methylfolate, Deplin are all methylfolate

    Metanx is Metafolin, methylb12 and P5P

    B12 forms, in order of effectiveness and likelihood of causing the responses listed here are methylcbl, adenosylcbl, hydroxycbl, cyanocbl



    Typically several of these symptoms will appear suddenly with more appearing and worsening over time if corrections are not made. While these groups of symptoms are called “detox” by some alternative practitioners and many people otherwise knowledgeable about vitamins and supplements, depending upon what theories they are operating under, use this term. Typically they are working on a “toxin” theory of CFS/FMS/ME/MCS etc and that these vitamins and supplements mobilize the toxins which then cause all sorts of symptoms in the groups listed. As the “translations” are made it is clear that actual “detox” if it exists, has nothing to do with these symptoms and they can be dangerous to ignore. If it is “detox” in an actual sense, then it is in what is left after these other things are accounted for and/or corrected, perhaps 5-10% of the total initial number. Also, co-morbidities often show up in this way..

    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with cyanocobalamin it is very common with methylb12 and adensosylb12 and less so with hydroxycobalamin..

    IBS – Steady constipation , Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum, Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness, Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), Increased pulse rate, Increased blood pressure, Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.

    Group 2a - Both

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation

    Group 2b – Either or both

    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue

    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract, increased hypersensitive responses , Skin rashes, Increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores, Coated tongue, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, Increase irritability, Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Old symptoms returning, Heart palpitations, Bleeding easily.



    Group 4 - Hydroxycbl onset, degraded methylcbl onset, methylcbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.



    Group 3 symptoms, induced paradoxical folate deficiency or insufficiency are corrected quickly with titrated doses of Metafolin, methylb12 and adenosylb12. If glutathione (precursors) are the cause then larger doses of Metafolin, 7.5-15mg,or maybe more are needed. Different tissues are affected at different levels of methylfolate, it comes or goes in stages. Very strong dose proportionate characteristics are present. Serum folate levels may be high or even very high despite Metafolin responsive deficiency/insufficiency symptoms.

    Group 1 symptoms respond readily to potassium. The symptoms and response to potassium may occur at a serum level of 4.3 or less.


    e
     
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  10. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I already quoted Rich's post about his explanation on detox symptoms related to methylation. I don't know how broadly his theory applies to people in general. Unfortunately he's unable to clarify his position on that matter now, but there are probably a lot of posts by him floating around on different threads where some insight can be gleaned. I think it's great that there are different points of view because groupthink is usually not a good thing. I certainly don't want to get into a debate about who is right and who is wrong. One thing he did say only a few months ago (Fall 2012) in discussing his Revised Simplified Methylation Protocol:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ation-protocol-august-25-2012-revision.19050/

    I didn't want to include to much of my history in my post since I had already posted that information in other threads, but now I see it's necessary. I'll try to give you a better idea of what's been going on and maybe we can sort through this.

    I use the term "detox" because the first period where I experienced overstimulation I wasn't taking any of those supplements mentioned except a high dose of vitamin C. However, I was taking long, very hot baths twice a day which caused toxins to be released in my body. By toxins I am partially referring to mercury and copper from my amalgams which I had put in a year before that. Also, I have Lyme disease and found out recently that very hot baths can cause a herxheimer reaction.

    The overstimulation started around Spring/Summer 2010 which I don't believe was caused by any supplements. Then from around January 2011 - Summer 2012 I was slowly improving. I attribute a huge part of my partial recovery to getting enough sleep (10+ hours) and limiting my activities (spending most of the in bed). However, I was taking a lot of the supplements you mention.

    Glutathione + Precursers
    Reduced Glutathione sublingual (100mg) divided into 2 doses
    Alpha Lipoic Acid (1200mg) divided into 2 doses
    NAC (1200mg) divided into 2 doses
    Vitamin C (4000mg) divided into a few doses
    Molybdenum (300-400mcg) divided into a few doses
    Selenium (300-400mcg) divided into a few doses
    TMG (650-1300mg) divided into 3 doses
    MSM (4000mg) divided into 2 doses
    L-Glutamine (4000mg) divided into 3 doses
    L-Glycine (4000mg) divided into 3 doses

    ATP
    Vitamin C (4000mg) divided into a few doses
    Magnesium Malate or Malic Acid + Magnesium
    D-Ribose (10-15g) divided into 3 doses
    Coenzyme Q10 (400mg) divided into 4 doses
    Acetyl L Carnitine (2000mg) divided into 4 doses
    Alpha Lipoic Acid (1200mg) divided into 2 doses

    Other things mentioned in regards to methylation
    P5P, Vitamin A, Vitamin D 7500 IU, Zinc (over 40mg) divided into a few doses,
    Melatonin (3mg)

    Then at the end of September 2012 my tooth with an amalgam cracked. By pure coincedence I had temporarily stopped almost all these supplements in the weeks and months prior to when my tooth cracked because I wasn't sure I needed them and wanted to see what happened when I stopped. After my tooth was removed I started taking them again because I thought they would help me heal since I had infections when my wisdom teeth were removed. Also, another coincedence is that about 2 days after my tooth was removed I started taking B Right with methylfolate. I had been taking B Right twice a day for over a year without any problems, but in the new bottle they changed the formula so now it had methylfolate. Even though folic acid is supposed to block methylfolate I still seemed to react to it. It took me over a month to figure out was was going on and only after reading about methylation. Otherwise I might not have figured it out for a long time. I read the symptoms you listed for Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency and I don't believe that applies to me, but I don't want to rule anything out at this point.

    I stopped the B Right supplement and just took regular B complex. I also cut way back on Coenzyme Q10 and Magnesium Malate which increased my symptoms of anxiety and overstimulation. I did continue to take low doses of Carnitine L Fumarate, Alpha Lipoic Acid, and NAC. I continued taking Vitamin C, a Glutathione sublingual, and Curcumin (which I found out just last week was a methyl donor). This was the period where I experienced the stoned feeling. I attribute the feeling partially to Prozac and Carnitine Fumarate, but there was probably synergy with various other supplements I was taking. I don't know what your experience is with drugs, but for me the "stoned feeling" is very pleasurable. Part of it was fatigue as well since I hadn't been sleeping well every since my medication had changed 4-5 months before that.

    I was wondering about that because I have seen a few potassium threads which has scared me from trying methylation. I had licorice tea a few times in the last few months which increased the overstimulation and licorice is supposed to lower potassium. I will try looking into that more in the next few days. Reading the symptoms you list though, only heart palpitations and increased pulse were ones I've experienced. I do realize it's good to be cautious so I have been taking extra potassium, but I am confused about the dosage and am also concerned about taking too much potassium because that can be dangerous as well. I know there are a lot of threads discussing it so I will read more on that before I go too far ahead in methylation.

    I also just started taking a high dose of Niacinamide because I believe I am overmethylating so hopefully that will keep things from out of hand. I know there are different opinions on that, but that's my present course of action until I have more information.

    I do plan to continue attempts at methylation, but I'm going to do it at a very slow pace and also treat my other health issues at the same time (adrenals, Lyme, heavy metals) because I don't believe methylation to be a cure-all (at least for me).

    Once I started taking active B12 and increased my dosage on some other supplements the stimulation gradually began to return. From what I've read sometimes it takes a few days or weeks for it to build up which is why I'm planing on doing things slower now. Even though I'm overstimulated again I'm not experiencing the heart palpitations (I have been taking extra potassium so that might be helping, but I haven't seen definitive evidence yet). I also, my overstimulation is much more focused now. I feel like I did when I used to take ADD medication (which are stimulants for those who don't know). Although the overstimulation isn't as uncomfortable as in the past I know my body needs rest. That's how I healed myself in the past and I plan on taking measures to do that again.
     
  11. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Update: I checked out some threads and it seems my potassium dosage is pretty low. I thought since I wasn't taking a high dose of the supplements used for methylation that I didn't need that much potassium. I was also concerned about taking too much potassium both for health risks and also diarrhea. I took some potassium citrate with my meal which I had been doing anyways, but after an hour I didn't feel any better so I took some potassium chloride also and did feel better afterwards. I should mention that I also did take 250mg of Niacinamide right after my meal, but I'm not sure I felt better until I took the extra potassium. This is very strange because I've read that low potassium is only supposed to happen when taking active folates and I'm not taking any. If this is true then the naturally occurring folates in foods I'm consuming and possibly also being produced by my probiotics are causing the problems. Although this isn't a problem as long as I take sufficient potassium and B12. I don't want to jump to any conclusions, but I hope this is what's the case. Even so, it still means that the mercury exposure created a partial methylation block and that I need to take proper precautions as my body's detoxification pathways open up.
     
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  12. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Update 2
    I don't think it's the potassium. I upped my dose of potassium and started taking B12 again. My body is detoxing mercury. I've talked to others with the same experience and I trust Rich on this. I hope others don't have the same experience as me and can alleviate their issues simply by taking more potassium.
     
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City
    Hi Lotus,

    It helps to understand the dynamics of potassium. When one eats food with potassium, the potassium is picked up rapidly by the tissues with release of insulin. Peak potassium in serum from food is about 18 hours after consumption. I found that I need to take aty least 300-400mg at a time, more wioth meals. One titrates the potassium, like any of these things, byy effect. The minimum effective dose is about 300-400mg. This can can help in an hour or less and may only last a few hours. There is no steady relief until the level of both the dose and the frequency gets high enough. 200mg of net potassium might not be enough in a dose to make a difference. Remember most supplements are 90-99mg (3%) of daily requirement, net. The gross size of the pill might be 500mg or more for potassium gluconate for 99mg of potassium. Many people mistake those two numbers.. Healing gets turned on in about 5 layers, each layer turns on quite suddenly and each layer requires some increase in potassium. Part of it is that a person who has blocked methylation isn't healing right. When their healing turns on, it suddenly needs more potassium than is present immeduiately in the serum even though the body may have ample, it isn't available A person that is putting on water may need less potassium and those who are suddenly taking off water may be posing more potassium than usual so fluctuations around edema appear to aoocur as well as from healing. I'm working on some very detailed explaination of these layers of healing which I'm trying to get finished before I post it. The major problem with starting up methylation is that it doesn't happen in a vacuum. Making one cell requires everything needed just as making a million cells, just a differnet quantity.

    A typical level of potassium to 100mcg combined absorbed AdoCb/MeCbl with adequate L-methylfolate, also titrated goes approximately like this.

    100 mcg AdoCbl/MeCbl - 2400mcg L-methylfolate for no paradoxical folate deficiency 1200-3000mg potassium
    100 mcg AdoCbl/MeCbl - 6000-8000mcg L-methylfolate for folic acid only paradoxical folate deficiency 1200-3000mg potassium
    100 mcg AdoCbl/MeCbl - 12,000-20,000 mcg L-methylfolate for folic acid and folinic acid paradoxical folate deficiency 1200-3000mg potassium

    This may or may not apply to you.. Titrate by effect. The thing about taking the active MeCbl and AdoCbl, is that done as a titration you KNOW when healing starts and can be almost certain that the very sick feeling is pow potassium, low methylfolate and usually half a dozen other deficiencies that are handled one at a time. The nutrients that actually have these effects have them rapidly. There is no "easy" turn on. The body has a "triage" system and and one layer gets turned on and then as the reuirements for the next layer are met that gets turned on. The advanatage of both active b12s at once is because balance matters and they are both dependent upon the other. Lack of eaither can block any effect. I will be listing these interdependencies within a couple of days.
     
    Michael likes this.
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City
    Also, the number two 95% likeli answer is more methylfolate. Rich is NOT correct on his outdated and never correct understanding of "detox". It almost always isn't. The cofactors of selenium and alpha lipoic acid also help in working these things out. The micrograms of mecrury that MIGHT be methylated are not sufficient to cause symptoms. It takes 20-30mg of methylmercury to cause symtpoms. It would take 210mg of 100% converted MeCbl to methyl mecury to produce those 20-30mg of methyl mercury. Howecver, 99% of that would be excreted unchanged in 24 hours. What you are claiming about mercury just can't happen they way the proponents of that hypothesis insist. It just CAN'T happen that way. At the maixmum rate of 24 hour retention (that isn't excereted unchanged), it would take a single injection of 21,000mg, 21 grams of MeCbl to do what the hypothesis says happens, Whatever it is, it is not that. I'm speaking as one of those rarte people who peuposfully healed myself from ME-CFS-FMS and had major remission of Subacute Combined Degneration and have shown a lot of others to do so as well. The mercury hypothesis doesn't lead to anybody healing but causes lots of misery as people have "put up with detox" for years of unnecessary sufferring. Good luck.
     
  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    United States
    Fredd, I do value your opinion. I've read all your posts in this thread and am planning on reading your threads about Glutathione and paradoxical folate deficiency. I don't know who is right, but I'm going to play it safe for now. I'm stopping B12 for at least a few days and then I'm going back to a lower dose than before.

    I'm basing my opinion about detox not just on Rich, but also many other people here with mercury problems who have had difficulties with methylation.
     
  16. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Seattle
    In the long run, folinic has worked out best for me. It took more than a year to figure this out, but am glad I did. I also take a small amount of methylfolate, but mainly folinic (along with TMG, and ad-b12, and a small amount of methyl-b12). Doing 'better' than a year ago, relatively speaking.
     
    merylg likes this.
  17. SJB944

    SJB944 Senior Member

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    Dannybex, did you get SNPS done to work out folinic was best, or just trial and error?
     
  18. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    I did have the SNPS test, and an interpretation of them, but folinic wasn't stressed, although it was mentioned. I ended up basing my choice mainly on the study by Jill James of kids with autism, and some of these same mutations, including the CBS:

    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/80/6/1611.full
     
  19. SJB944

    SJB944 Senior Member

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    Ok. Thanks Dannybex. Just wondering how helpful SNP test are? Seems in the end it all comes down to rial and error!
     
  20. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    I'm just getting ready to try Solgar Metafolin for the first time. Just wondering what you learned over the year that was important? It took me months to figure out which magnesium could work for me, and that was certainly worth it.
     

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