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PLEASE HELP - Do Probiotics Methylate Mercury and other heavy metals?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by dannybex, Dec 6, 2010.

  1. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    I stumbled across a mention of this last night, and just now googled for more info, and not sure what to make of it -- some say yes, others say no.

    Been having a really difficult time -- extremely difficult -- since a couple weeks after starting the methylation protocol and probiotics -- doc said I'm "dumping heavy metals".

    I stopped the b12, folates, about 3 weeks ago, but still having problems with extreme anxiety and cramps, tension -- an over-the-top version of "wired but tired".

    So I'm wondering if others with working brains could shed light on whether probiotics do indeed methylate mercury. Perhaps this is the reason some have such negative reactions to probiotics and/or probiotics with the methylation supps?

    Here's a link to a google search using the terms "Probiotics" "methylate mercury":

    http://www.google.com/search?client...iotics "methylate mercury"&btnG=Google Search

    Thanks in advance,

    Dan
     
  2. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Here's another post that perhaps might be helpful? This person suggests that the developer of a chelating product may have been the person that started the theory...

    http://onibasu.com/archives/amc/10223.html

    Interesting that Hal Huggins, the dentist who is well known for raising the mercury in fillings issue, is 'pro' probiotics.

    ???
     
  3. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    Dan, I looked at that search, so some studies show gut candida and gut bacteria capable of methylating inorganic mercury. However, if you are taking b12 sublingually or by injection, that should bypass the gut and reduce the risk it is methylating mercury in the gut. However, this does raise an interesting issue. From what I read there are variations based on the probiotic's bacterial species, some appear to methylate inorganic mercury more than others. So what to do? My thought would be to find out more, determine which probiotics methylate mercury and which do not. This might explain some of my own experience with probiotics, some helping, some doing nothing (including NDF), and some making things worse.

    This also supports the idea that for CFS any anti-candida therapy should be accompanied by some metals binders. EDTA for example, or an absorbent algae, bentonite clay, activated charcoal, or careful doses of chlorella.

    I think CFS patients are special cases due to our poor methylation system, HPA imbalance, ANS problems and high metals load. So well-meaning advice from natural health practitioners is often wrong for us. I have never improved significantly with probiotics myself, often they made me really sick, perhaps this same issue you are dealing with.

    But B12 therapy, using multiple forms and adding co-factors, has been very helpful, including use of methyl-form B12. However, the right dose and the right co-factors is everything, you have to maintain a proper balance between all the key factors. Too much methyl-B12 makes me sick, but not enough, or taking B12 without co-factors makes me lapse back to near bed-ridden CFS. B12 is a pretty complicated therapy for CFS, took me years to find a combination that worked.
     
    Wayne likes this.
  4. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hi Dan--

    I am so sorry that you're continuing to struggle with this. I am also in the midst of an EXTREME wired/tired hurricane, for different reasons, so I can empathize.

    I have never heard of, or personally experienced, probiotics causing a metal detox. At times I take huge doses of the Jarrow probiotics, and never had an issue with that triggering any heavy metal detoxification. However, everyone is a unique individual, and with this condition, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. So if you feel that that is happening to you right now, I would stop using the probiotics for the time being. Heavy metal detox is much too hard on your system when you're already down.

    I have had several episodes of intense heavy metal detoxification, all being triggered by different things: Freddd's B12 protocol, Lauricidin, and zeolite are the most recent. When that happened, I stopped taking the supplement causing the detox and used the following to help me neutralize and clear the metals: fruit pectin (amazingly simple and helpful at mopping up the metals and getting them out thru the gut), chlorophyl (the World Organic brand), and N-A-C (taken in doses of 500mg about 4 times/day). Eating sulfur rich foods like onions and garlic is also helpful, and dry brushing one's skin and taking baths afterwards.

    When you open the heavy metal detox floodgates, it's always risky, as you never know HOW MUCH will gush out into your system, or HOW LONG it will take to clear all those nasty toxins. That's my big issue with the methylation protocols. I am definitely not up for them yet, and I can't imagine anyone who is in a weakened state can handle them well... unless they are doing just a smidge of a crumb of a dose of each of the folates and the B12.

    I hope that this is helpful. And I hope others have good ideas about how to clear heavy metals after they've been mobilized. Keep us posted on your progress.
     
  5. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    IMO I think EDTA is too strong, but some of the others might be helpful... along with the ones I suggested in my prior post.
     
  6. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Thanks Kurt and DB for your replies, I really appreciate them.

    I was prescribed some chlorella by the doc, but she gave me an expired bottle(!), then when I searched for info, I found some people here getting really sick from it...vomiting, etc. I don't need that, so I didn't take it.

    But will stop the probiotics for now (even though in the past they've never caused an obvious problem, and in fact thought that back in 2003 Custom Probiotics and Threelac really helped with anxiety), and instead will try adding some chelators, binders, as you both mention. I was taking ALA every 3-4 hours per Cutler last August (09), and that seemed to help. If only I had continued...

    I always wonder when I can take these binders, so that they don't interfere with food and supplements, but I guess I could try the charcoal right before bed?

    Can't take baths very often, or even showers, but do try to take a shower once a week. Skin just peeeeeeels off...probably because I don't take them often enough. Just wear me out too much from all that peeling. I know...bizarre.

    DB -- the fruit pectin -- is that any sort of fruit pectin, or do you mean 'modified citrus pectin' that turns up on google for detox?

    THANK YOU.

    Dan
     
  7. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Just a quick mention (and then I'm going down for a rest). Whenever I feel I might be dealing with a heavy metal load, I usually do one of my clay foot baths. I feel it gives me an element of control over my delicate detoxification balance that no other modality does.

    So if I'm feeling toxic, I can do a foot bath for say 30-40 minutes, when I often I start feeling better. If I extend it longer than this, it has the potential to make things feel even more burdensome. Of all my detox protocols, this has always worked the best, especially in conjunction with coffee enemas if I feel I'm in any kind of crisis situation.

    Hope you can find something that works well for you Dan.

    Take Care, Wayne
     
  8. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    What I use is POMONA'S UNIVERSAL PECTIN, which I buy at the health food store. It's used for making jams and jellies, but is also a great at helping to clear and move the heavy metal toxins out. IT's one of the 2 ingredients in Jarrow's Heavy Metal Detox. (the other is alginate) http://www.jarrow.com/product-428 I think the pectin alone is milder, so I use that alone.

    And don't forget: the chlorophyl (the World Organic brand),
    and N-A-C if you can handle it (I take it in doses of 500mg about 4 times/day),
    and eating sulfur rich foods like onions and garlic,
    and increasing your fiber (this is when I up my rice consumption by a LOT)
    and dry brushing one's skin...
    and Waynes's clay foot baths sound good too.

    Just thought I'd make a list of what sounds good to me.

    PS I never did well with chlorella either. Many people are allergic to algae, and there are few REAL CLEAN good sources.
     
  9. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Thanks Wayne -- I'd be interested in hearing more details about your clay foot baths.

    DB -- I picked up some pectin (everyone hum along), and man, that was pricey(!) for such a small amount. But I guess it depends on how much one needs to take. How much do you take -- how long should a one ounce packet last?

    Thanks in advance. :)

    d.
     
  10. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi Kurt,

    Since my earlier post, I found references that state that candida itself methylates mercury (at least according to Andrew Cutler). And then there are those who say that candida only gets out of control because it is trying to protect the body from mercury and other metals. Have no idea if this is true of course! As I'm sure you know...lots of conflicting info out there.

    I'm curious Kurt...do you know if you currently have a heavy metal or mercury issue? Or did you in the past, and took care of it with chelation, binders, etc.?

    d.
     
  11. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Dan.

    I'm sorry to hear that you've been having a difficult time since starting the methylation treatment combined with probiotics. I've heard from another person who had problems with anxiety and insomnia on this combination. In his case, we eventually realized that the probiotic bacteria were capable of synthesizing folate, and we came to suspect that this was effectively raising his dosage of chemically reduced folate, which is one of the key ingredients in the methylation treatment. This would have the effect of lifting the partial block in the methylation cycle more rapidly, which in turn would bring on the renewed function of the detox system more rapidly. Perhaps this would account for the more rapid mobilization of heavy metals that your physician found. I'm glad to hear that you have backed off on the treatments. It may take some time for the folate levels to drop, so that the detox will slow down. After that happens, you might consider doing the probiotic treatment separate from the methylation treatment. The combination may be too much for your body to tolerate.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
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  12. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Thanks so much Rich. That's an interesting explanation. I am definitely cutting back on both probiotics and the methylation supps. I did take a drop of the b-12 last night, but will stop for now unless you suggest otherwise.

    This other person...if I may ask...was he able to restart the folates/b12's after a couple of months...at a lower doses?
     
  13. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    Dan,

    I wish I could get that detoxing metals feeling again but can;t seem to get them to come out anymore. I think it is a great sign you are detoxing like that, doesn't that mean you are metylating again....?

    Maybe just dial it down like Rich suggests? but more chelators are going to just make more metals come out aren't they?

    Others will certainly have other advice, but maybe adding olive oil and fiber to purge your gallbladder bile into the fiber, which may act as a binder?(a couple hours from vitamins) Maybe just slow down or speed up the methylation to make it a little more tolerable?

    Maybe keeping your bowel working well will help too? Those metals can be extremely constipating.

    I think you are on the right track and hope you can dial it in. Good luck.

    One last thought, maybe you can try measuring the metals coming out of your system. I had a DMSA provoked urine test to measure my metals before and after. In my situation with lead, the lead didn;t show up on the tests. Then it came in much higher later when methylating.
     
    Wayne likes this.
  14. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Clay Foot Baths

    Hi Dan,

    Here's an edited version of a post I did on clay foot baths when I was at ProHealth.

    All the Best, Wayne
    .........................................

    Originally posted on the ProHealth board July, 2008

    I feel detox clay foot baths are one of the most effective and beneficial detoxification methods because of their simplicity and also because of their immediate results. They can also usually be done without initiating detoxification or herxing reactions. In fact, I use them primarily to relieve detoxification symptoms.

    Doing clay foot baths can draw a lot of toxicity directly out of the body, bypassing the normal detoxification channels involving the skin, liver, kidneys, colon, etc. This saves our precious energy and also minimizes wear and tear on the detoxification organs.

    I ALWAYS feel relief from my symptoms after doing one of these foot baths. I feel it removes heavy metals and various pathogens. It apparently has a lot to do with adsorption of materials that are oppositely charged.

    If you're interested in doing this, the following steps can get you going.

    1) Order some high quality clay (usually bentonite) in bulk - I get mine from a company called evenbetternow. They also have excellent information on detoxification. I also use the following bentonite product, which may be easy to purchase at a local health food store:

    NOW Foods - Bentonite Powder 100% Pure Clay - 1 lb.

    2) Use 1/2 cup of clay and blend in a quart of water for 10-15 seconds. It will quickly begin to thicken, so pouring it out before it gets too thick will make it easier to handle.

    3) Pour into a "tote" bucket. Good sized plastic buckets that will accommodate the length of your feet can be found at any retail box store.

    4) Fill the tote bucket with comfortably warm to hot water so there is enough to cover the soles of your feet (approx. 3-4 inches). I usually have a pot of hot water handy to keep the water warm during my foot bath.

    5) Find a comfortable place to sit or lay down. I usually try to do something relaxing like reading or even some sort of polarity exercises.

    6) ENJOY! I usually do mine for 30-45 minutes and it really does give a break to the body and psyche.

    We're all different and can experience different reactions from various therapies. I read and have mildly experienced that doing these footbaths can create somewhat of a "gripping" sensation in the gut.

    This apparently is a mobilization of toxins. If these toxins cannot be drawn out quickly enough into the clay water, then it would be best to limit the foot bath time. After experiencing a bit of this the first couple of times, I no longer notice it.

    BTW, this NOW brand bentonite is also ingestible. If you read the full article from the above link, it has some really good information about some of the beneficial things that clay can do inside our bodies.
     
  15. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Just a quick mention Dan. When I mentioned your experiences to my partner, she immediately recalled how she tried a number of probiotics over many years, and had adverse reactions to all but one. And she's healthy. Just another thought to throw into the mix.

    Wayne
     
  16. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    Yes, I have documented a metal issue including mercury, in fact I had a blood test after challenge. Took a chelator in the evening and had blood drawn the next morning, to check the body burden. And I had a high load and tried various chelators and binders, including Cutler's protocol for awhile, nothing worked in terms of 'solving' CFS. Anyway, I don't think it is physically possible to 'take care of' a mercury load if you have amalgams (I still have a few), I read somewhere there is enough mercury in a single amalgam to take several lifetimes to detox. My own philosophy is that this is an issue to manage and not solve, at least for now. And getting B12 levels to the right balance seems to work, but that requires methylation co-factors, etc.
     
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  17. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    You need to follow the directions on the box to mix it up. I use only a teaspoon at a time in about 2 cups of boiling H2O.

    I shake the pectin s-l-o-w-l-y into the water as it boils, and stir it rapidly with a fork to try to prevent it from clumping. However, be forewarned, it is very GLUNKY and doesn't dissolve very well.

    Once it's "cooked" I scrape it off the sides of the pot and eat/drink it straight with a bit of lemon it. I suppose if you have a sweet tooth you can use juice or some honey to help it go down.... not that I would recommend that with candida, but that's your choice.
     
  18. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi Mark,

    Believe me, you do not ever in your life want to have the kind of feelings I've had during the last month or so. When I mean, anxiety, I'm talking about the most extreme type of anxiety possible -- and all the extreme, unrelenting tension and severe muscle cramping and continuous twitching that can go along with it. At times I felt like I was going to vomit, but couldn't. I was seriously very close to suicide on at least six occaisons -- felt everything was hopeless, and really just wanted to die. Well, I didn't want to die, but you know what I mean...?

    But I understand your points and appreciate your comments. I guess it is a good sign in a way, that I'm dumping metals, and this has been so disturbing, but also humbling, that I finally understand how very sick I've been all along, even though just a year ago I was still "functioning" at say, 40%. Now that's down to about 25%.
    I'm definitely trying to dial it in...way in. :)

    It is frustrating, because of course we need the folates, and b12's, but if they (and the probiotics combined) are causing too rapid of a release of mercury and arsenic, then I guess it's best to stop 'em for now. And stop the probiotics. (I was taking quite a slew of different probiotics).

    I did find a little relief last night from taking taurine. It helps lower toxic aldehyde levels and also helps with gallbladder/liver function -- seemed to notice a definite lessening of tension that lasted through the night, and even through the morning. I didn't tighten up again until about an hour ago.

    Thanks Mark.
     
  19. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Thanks Wayne for the details on the clay foot baths. When does Spa Wayne open for business? :)

    Seriously, I'll definitely look into it.

    I did have some liquid bentonite around here somewhere, but think I must've tossed it a couple years back.

    NEWFLASH: I just found it in the back of the cupboard. Feels like almost a full bottle -- sheesh. Have you or anyone else tried it internally? I'm just kind of spooked about any negative reactions...???
     
  20. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Wow. That's interesting Kurt. You're doing okay with B12 -- and the co-factors -- even with fillings in your mouth!?

    Life isn't fair. (I'm KIDDING.) :)

    Thanks Kurt.
     

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