The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Did you have a vaccination not long before developing ME/CFS?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Wishful, Oct 5, 2017.

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Did you have a vaccination not long before developing ME/CFS?

  1. Yes

    39 vote(s)
    45.9%
  2. No

    46 vote(s)
    54.1%
  1. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl Senior Member

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    Tetanus for me.

    I read many years later that it had a negative impact on the immune system for many months after the shot.
    After the shot, I became ill with the flu that wouldn't go away. My immune system had lost all its welly.
     
    Stretched likes this.
  2. HowToEscape?

    HowToEscape? Senior Member

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    Re the never-ending “what’s that ingredient doing in vaccines!” issue (Not about whether people with MECFS should get vaccines)

    I don’t have a biology or medicine background and wanted to get some information based on actual evidence. I started looking on a site called science based medicine (all one word). They explain this far better than I can!

    It seems to be about 50% retired MDs who post there, they don’t sell anything.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
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  3. Tammy

    Tammy Senior Member

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    What? Don't even no where to go with that statement..............but that's OK. ;)
     
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  4. HowToEscape?

    HowToEscape? Senior Member

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    Mercury is a natural element. it’s in the ground it’s in the sea, it’s in plants, it’s in fish.

    Thousands of natural things are poisonous If absorbed in significant quantity, your system deals with tiny amounts of them all the time. They’re all around, rarely with labels attached.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
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  5. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member

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    The other side.
    ...and, to put it bluntly, if they weren't we would get sick and die. Our bodies need some of these things, they need them so much that in some cases they hoard them, our biology expects them (the amount ingested and absorbed) to be rare, so rare that a mechanism to deal with excess hasn't evolved, which is the main reason why too much can, potentially, be poisonous.
     
  6. HowToEscape?

    HowToEscape? Senior Member

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    Exactly.
    if you look at the trace minerals in a mineral and vitamin supplement, you’ll see things like chromium. I’m not aware of any biological role for mercury, but the stuff’s been around since the beginning of time.

    Of course the amounts we need of those things are tiny; if you got the bright idea of peeling the chrome off a car bumper and grinding it up into your morning breakfast, you’d eventually manage to poison yourself.*. And we usually don’t run into these things as a pure element, we use the element name as shorthand for an even scarier sounding chemical which makes it biologically available.

    But hey “Your well water is contaminated with deadly nickel and chromium because of Secret government experiments. Buy my thousand dollar filter, it’s the only one that uses ancient healing energy rays to create organic living water!!!!!”

    *Although I’m not sure if the elemental form found in chrome plating can be absorbed by mammals, Especially in the particle size you could achieve with a home grinder.
    I suggest not trying this experiment ;-)
     
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  7. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member

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    The other side.
    Of course there is a biological use for mercury, at points in history we have been desperately short of mad people, we occasionally need them.:p

    This is, possibly controversially, shown by female attraction towards the "bad boy" meme, instead of the, generally, much more useful stable caring provider meme.
     
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  8. Wishful

    Wishful Senior Member

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    Mercury has _not_ been around since the beginning of time. It had to wait until the first hydrogen-burning stars went nova, creating heavy elements. It's been around before our planet formed, so life had to deal with it from the start.

    Don't mind me, I'm just PEMming today...
     
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  9. scienceshea

    scienceshea

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    Although I haven’t been officially diagnosed with CFSME I believe my symptoms started to become significantly noticeable/worrisome just after a Tetanus booster.

    Tried discussing a possible relationship with my PCP and was immediately dismissed. I feel like my symptoms may have started prior but were not signicantly impacting my day to day until after along along with the onset of many other symptoms.
     
  10. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    With the undefined timescale of "not long" in the poll question, this survey will not really be able to produce meaningful results.

    Some people may interpret "not long" to be in the order of days, whereas others might interpret it to mean within the last 6 to 12 months.



    In any case, I think the only way you could reliably link a vaccination to triggering ME/CFS is when you get rapid onset ME/CFS just after a vaccination, when one day you are perfectly healthy, and a few days later you have full blown ME/CFS. That contrasts to gradual onset, in which ME/CFS slowly appears over many months.

    If someone gets a vaccination, and they developed full blown ME/CFS one or two days later, I see that as better evidence that the vaccine may have caused it.

    Whereas if you happened to have a vaccination, and then 3 months later ME/CFS started to appear, I don't see that as very good evidence for a vaccine trigger. Not saying it's impossible, but from an evidence perspective it does not carry much weight.


    The main trigger of ME/CFS appears to be viral infection, and can you can catch such a triggering virus at any time. Some people may get a flu-like or gastrointestinal illness when they first catch a triggering a virus, but others may catch the virus asymptomatically without any initial symptoms at all.

    So obviously, just by random chance, some people are going to have had a vaccination "not long" before they caught a virus which triggered their ME/CFS. So they then might then attribute the ME/CFS to the vaccination, but the vaccine may have had nothing to do with the precipitation of their ME/CFS. It may have been just a coincidence that the individual had a vaccination a few months earlier.

    However, when ME/CFS appears literally within days of a vaccination, then the chances of such coincidence (the coincidence that they could have caught a virus around the same day as they had the vaccination) are much smaller. That's why ME/CFS appearing within a few days of vaccination to my mind is stronger evidence.


    I am not arguing against the idea that vaccines can trigger ME/CFS, but we do have to be cautious about not attributing cause when in fact it might just be coincidence.
     
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  11. Max80

    Max80

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    With Macrophagic Myofasciitis, patients have a delayed onset of ME/CFS following vaccination. The average timescale for the onset of symptoms is 3 months post-vaccine for cognitive impairment and chronic fatigue, followed by 10 months for the onset of muscle pain. In epidemiological studies, 50% of patients with Macrophagic Myofasciitis meet the criteria for a diagnosis of ME/CFS (125 times higher than the 0.4% of the general population). The experts in Macrophagic Myofasciitis recommend that a deltoid muscle biopsy be considered to test for Macrophagic Myofasciitis if patients develop ME/CFS up to 10 years post-vaccination. A definitive diagnosis of Macrophagic Myofasciitis is a reliable link to the vaccination triggering ME/CFS.
     
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  12. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I am glad you brought up macrophagic myofasciitis.

    At this point we don't know if macrophagic myofasciitis is the same as ME/CFS, even though the symptoms are very similar (there are several diseases with very similar symptoms to ME/CFS, yet are not ME/CFS, so similarity symptoms does not guarantee it's the same disease). Unless of course in future it is shown that macrophagic myofasciitis has the same basic pathophysiology as ME/CFS.

    One commonality is the involvement of muscles: in ME/CFS you often find a chronic non-cytolytic enterovirus infection in the muscle tissues, whereas macrophagic myofasciitis you have aluminum compounds found inside macrophages in the deltoid muscle.


    I guess there could well be many people who developed macrophagic myofasciitis after vaccination, and were misdiagnosed with ME/CFS.

    So if someone does think they have developed ME/CFS after vaccination, perhaps they might want to get tested for macrophagic myofasciitis via this deltoid muscle biopsy (the muscle usually used to inject vaccines, and where the aluminum hydroxide adjuvant may collect).

    Although this paper says the average time to onset of the first macrophagic myofasciitis symptoms is 7 months after vaccination; so I am not sure if the rapid onset type of ME/CFS-like symptoms after vaccination could be due to macrophagic myofasciitis.



    I notice from your other posts, @Max80, that you say you developed macrophagic myofasciitis 6 weeks after a hepatitis B vaccination, which was confirmed in France by a deltoid muscle biopsy (because the NHS were not interested in performing such a biopsy).

    I just wondered: have you or anyone with macrophagic myofasciitis ever tried Professor Chris Exley's recommended treatment for aluminum detoxification, namely silica, from sources such as horsetail herb? There's some info in this post.

    It's possible that the silica could help remove the aluminum from the deltoid muscle, although it would probably require months or years of supplementing with horsetail for any benefits to appear. Malic acid is also an aluminum chelator.

    I wonder if any doctor has considered injecting aluminum chelators into the deltoid muscle to help clear the aluminum?
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
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  13. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

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    -Mercury is in fish because of pollution of waters by human activity

    -Your system can deal with tiny amounts of poisons, but if too many tiny amounts of too many poisons, additive effects can occur and your system is no longer able to deal with it
     
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  14. Stretched

    Stretched Senior Member

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    Yes, a Tetanus shot about 6 months prior to vacation at Lake Tahoe (Incline Village,1985) then flu-like symptoms, then immediately to CFS onset So, it looks like two coincidences, maybe causal or additive?

    I have been a subscriber of the Polio vaccine theory, of several branches per earlier personal research then related broader published research pertinent to Jonas Salk and the 1950’s vaccinations, when I was vaccinated.

    Quotes: Nov 20, 2017, Phoenixrising.me, ‘50,000 foot overview of Major ME/CFS, page 3... :’

    @Prof Martin
    I’ve read your publications in the past... . don’t recall if they covered this, but I’m curious about Tetanus vaccine - any thoughts, e.g. in conjunction with stealth viruses or SMV-40, polio vaccines?

    Dear Stretched,
    The heightened immune response induced by vaccination, including tetanus vaccine, can potentially trigger tissue-damaging reactions against remaining minor antigens expressed on stealth adapted virus-infected cells. Vaccine provocation of a pre-existing stealth adapted viral infection explains cases of vaccine-induced autism and also the health deterioration in occasional recipients of human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccine.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
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  15. Wishful

    Wishful Senior Member

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    No, it was there from the beginning of the Earth. Mercury is in the rock that makes up the planet, and rain washes it into the oceans eventually. Life had to deal with it--and all the other heavy metals--since life started. Humans have increased the amount in the biosphere, by mining and increasing erosion. There's probably a graph of heavy metal concentrations in seawater over time somewhere.
     
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  16. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

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    https://www.epa.gov/international-cooperation/mercury-emissions-global-context

    "Mercury occurs naturally in the earth’s crust, but human activities, such as mining and fossil fuel combustion, have led to widespread global mercury pollution. Mercury emitted into the air eventually settles into water or onto land where it can be washed into water. Once deposited, certain microorganisms can change it into methylmercury, a highly toxic form that builds up in fish, shellfish and animals that eat fish."

    "Anthropogenic (human-caused) emissions include mercury that is released from fuels or raw materials, or from uses in products or industrial processes.


    Some of the mercury circulating through today's environment was released years ago. Land, water, and other surfaces can repeatedly re-emit mercury into the atmosphere after its initial release into the environment. We know that anthropogenic emissions continue to add significantly to the global pool of mercury.

    Globally, artisanal and small-scale gold mining (ASGM) is the largest source of anthropogenic mercury emissions (37%), followed closely by coal combustion (24%). Other large sources of emissions are non-ferrous metals production and cement production. (United Nations Environment Programme, Global Mercury Assessment, 2013)"

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Wishful

    Wishful Senior Member

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    It's probably the same for all the other toxic heavy metals, such as lead and thallium. I don' recall any thallium scares, but I'm sure that will occur when someone sees a way to make money off the scare.
     
  18. Deepwater

    Deepwater Senior Member

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    Hepatitis jab for me. Problems started less than 24 hours later. Now into 24th year. . . .
     
  19. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Did you ever consider a macrophagic myofasciitis diagnosis? See this above post.
     
  20. Stretched

    Stretched Senior Member

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    You may want to Google w. John Martin, USC and stealth virus for expansion on how
    this works. There’s also a recent post & reply here in PR, above re same thing with
    Tetanus - and Prof Martin’s reply.
    (See Dr W. John Martin’ paper on CFS and CMV, American Journal ofPathology, Vol. 145, No. 2, August 1994, examining a stealth virus; later updated. Sept 18, 2014, MedCraveonline.com, Journal of Human Virology & Retrovirology, article: Stealth Adaptation of Viruses: Review and Updated Molecular Analysis on a Stealth Adapted African Green Monkey Simian Cytomegalovirus (SCMV).)
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018

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