The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Could the microwave soup in which we all live now partly explain the upsurge in 'CFS'?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Countrygirl, Feb 10, 2017.

  1. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl ME is not MUS

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    http://www.weepinitiative.org/artic...AreMicrowavesAtheMajorCausalFactorInCfsME.pdf

    I recall listening to a video a few years ago about the ill-effects of microwaves and was struck how very similar they are to some forms of CFS. Now I have just stumbled across a number of lectures on the same subject to which I am listening.

    I have also just read the document below as an introduction to the subject.

    Is it indeed possible that the increase in 'CFS' especially in children is at least partly explained by the microwave soup we now all live in now?

    It is, of course, also used as a stealth weapon, which is a deeply unpleasant subject.

     
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  2. carer51

    carer51 carer/partner of moderate/severe sufferer

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    I am not a scientist in any way. But it kind of makes some sort of sense to me if the problem with CFS is at a cellular/mitochondrial level.

    It sounds completely insane. But when things sound completely insane sometimes you have to wonder where all those negative associations come from and why they exist, who might it benefit for it to sound crazy.
     
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  3. slysaint

    slysaint Senior Member

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    Last edited: Feb 10, 2017
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  4. carer51

    carer51 carer/partner of moderate/severe sufferer

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    Slight tangent, but as a teenager I was briefly prescribed some low dose antipsychotics for anxiety.
    My counsellor gave me a copy of the sales leaflet normally issued to the prescribing professional. It had a hokey stock photograph of a man hiding in a house with everything covered in tin foil on the front of it. I couldn't quite believe the tactlessness/tackiness of it.

    I found it hilarious and kept it, being a teenager.
     
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  5. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl ME is not MUS

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    Just found this thread: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/what-causes-emf-sensitivity.19280/

    I am listening to the video at the bottom of this page http://geopathology-za.wikidot.com/barrie-trower at the moment. This isn't a recommendation as I haven't listened to all of it yet (but it is interesting), but it particularly caught my eye as the speaker lives near me, although I had never heard of him.

    Its use as a military weapon is very troubling. Have just read a page about testimonies directed at Professor Wessely begging him to help them as they are claiming they are being targeted by experimental microwave weapons as test subjects. :nervous::confused: He is reported as saying their problem is not his 'cup of tea'...............they don't appreciate how very fortunate they are if they are hoping to be taken seriously.
     
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  6. carer51

    carer51 carer/partner of moderate/severe sufferer

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    not his 'cup of tea' :s
    not flippant or anything...
     
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  7. HowToEscape?

    HowToEscape? Senior Member

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    Microwaves have been around since WWII, and are now ubiquitous due to the near universal use of cell phones. While anything new deserves a bit of caution, it doesn't follow that a new thing is the cause of all effects seen afterwards. It's very easy to paste together a "this scary thing/person/group is the cause of these here horrible evils", it's been done in since the start of recorded history. e.g. witches, blasphemers, smart people, Jews, various objects and animals have all been blamed for conditions from the Black Death to polio, using similar arguments. It's especially easy if you're starting with a desire to link X to Y, rather than asking "We have no clue about X, how should be look for a cause(s) of it?"

    I can't afford much energy untangling the highlighted screed, here's what I have time/energy for:

    Our disease did not begin in the '80s, only the Time Magazine & CDC attention to it did. The name "Myalgic Encephalomylitis" dates from the mid 1950s, from work on a mysterious outbreak at Royal Free Hospital by
    Melvin Ramsey. There were many earlier observations of a disease which matches ours in the 1930s, with some earlier accounts from the 18th century.
    Perhaps the Royal Free and earlier cases were each accompanied by a new village arrival resembling Arnold Schwarzenegger, one who was reported to, after being hit by lightning, briefly speak of a "Fly Net" (possibly sky net, witnesses were few) before his eye flashes red and he assassinates all he believed to have heard him. Prob'ly not tho, and without a time-traveling metal robot those earlier cases weren't caused by microwaves, plastic, vaccines or super-thermite.

    If it's the cause, then people who are recently exposed to microwaves in the small amounts present today would have developed the disease starting after the time microwave sources became common in their area. Those exposed in the past to higher amounts would would have more frequent and severe cases.

    So, if it were microwaves:
    • It would have started in WWII with electrical engineers, radar technicians and airport staff. Back then, people worked close enough to high-power antennas to feel a bit of warmth, which is on the order of a million times more than what you might get walking down the street in an area with high cell coverage. But radio techs, air traffic controllers, Navy RADAR operators etc did not show any unusual degree of mecfs.
    • Populations worldwide would have had a sudden upsurge in this when they started using a cell phone. In many developing countries the landline system was never built out, so the basic phone service is the cell. That caught on very fast, from the early 2000s up to today cell use in those places went from almost no one to almost everyone. If the cause were microwave background, there would be a tsunami of 3rd world mecfs.
    • Restaurants, especially for quick-serve and convenience foods, adopted microwaves before the public at large. If microwaves were our problem, there would be a notable incidence of the disease in Dunkin Donuts staff, etc.
    • The Sun produces microwaves, though in lower quantity than it does more powerful emissions such as UV. People living at high altitudes, where there's less atmosphere to absorb the microwaves, should have a higher incidence of mecfs for all of recorded history. There are few people living at high altitude, but they are well studied.
    There's a degree of microwave background radiation ..... through the entire known universe. It has no off switch.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2017
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  8. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    On a thread which discusses the possible causes of the 5-fold to 8-fold increase in the incidence of ME/CFS that occurred during the 1980s, it was suggested in this post that wireless radio technology might be responsible.

    However, from what I could work out, mobile phone base stations may have appeared just slightly too late to explain the rise in ME/CFS cases during the 1980s.

    The very first cellular phone network in the UK began in 1985, and it only covered London at that stage, but by 1987 it covered a substantial portion of the UK.
     
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  9. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl ME is not MUS

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    To the best of my knowledge, no one is suggesting that microwaves are associated with the onset of ME which probably began with the LA hospital outbreak in the early 1930s, when the doctors who became ill were given massive sums in compensation provided they agreed to signing a gagging clause to protect the suspected culprit: the new Brodie polio vaccine . (information provided by Dr Byron Hyde). ME-proper has always been associated with a polio-causing coxsackie B infection.

    However, large numbers of people now, as we all know, are diagnosed with non-ME CFS, a collection of conditions of which one might be associated with the consequences of exposure to microwaves. It is one possibility that we need to keep in mind until it is eliminated as a cause of ill health.
     
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  10. erin

    erin Senior Member

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    I have come across articles warning that the mobile phones and the mobile phone masts, which transmit and receive microwaves and radiation harms human cells and irreparably damages DNA.
     
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  11. HowToEscape?

    HowToEscape? Senior Member

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    "ME which probably began with the LA hospital outbreak in the early 1930s"
    The Brodie trial was considered a failure at the time and was halted, about one out of a thousand subjects contracted polio (because the vaccine contained polio) and a few died.

    One failed trial as the cause of a worldwide disease makes no sense to me: ME seems to have begun in the 19th century, and if that one trial were the cause, ME would have radiated outward from the 10,000 people in the Los Angeles area (not just MDs) who were in the trials. Further, the people who got sick in that trial got polio, because they were testing a killed polio virus inoculation made without enough quality control and testing. It was not an unexplained disease such as we have.

    The amount of microwave energy in even an urban area is so low that it can be detected only with fancy technology (a tuned radio antenna + circuitry to amplify the faint signal). There are no antennas, amplifiers or batteries in a human body, time-traveling androids excluded. One is exposed to a massive amount microwave's neighbor: IR, which is produced by a campfire, a toaster, any surface, and the Sun. There's enough IR around that you can feel it: stand in the Sun, in front of a fire, etc. That's not just a few but millions of times more than the microwaves out and about.
    We know what IR does: in comfortable amounts it makes you feel warm, in larger amounts it toasts or burns things, such as a slice of bread. Microwaves a step down in energy and wavelength from IR, and like lower frequencies they travel through things denser than air to some degree. Thus a toaster heats at/near the surface of your bread, while a microwave heats about an inch into typical food. If you built an oven using FM radio of similar power instead of microwaves, it would fail to heat food to a useful degree, which is exactly what you'd expect.

    While there's a remote possibility of almost anything, including severe health effects from vanishingly small amounts of radio waves, chasing after them rather than causes which have some plausible connection to the effect is a fool's errand. There's far less evidence for it than for Wessely's angle of "It's all in their head, those malingering defectives". One could just as well blame Jazz, Jews or Communists, as all three became more common in the US during the 1930s in major cities. Some people do; there are websites devoted to pinning pretty much everything short of the weather on those three.
     
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  12. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Hibernating

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    As @HowToEscape? mentions, the energy levels of microwaves are too low to have anything other than a nominal heating effect on the body.

    Quantum mechanics means the effects of radiation on the motion of molecules is specific (and known). Microwave radiation does not cause ionisation or any chemical damage beyond that caused by heat damage at high transmission wattages.
     
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  13. Molly98

    Molly98 Senior Member

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    That's funny, I suffer from electrohypersensitivity and we had to get rid of the microwave because I was picking it up from the next room when on, same with the electric cooker which we also had to get rid of and replace with gas. So I certainly do have antennas or amplifiers for it :).

    We can not have wifi, cordless phones or mobiles either at home at one point it had become so severe and distressing I was planning on moving into the shed at the bottom of the garden because I just could not tolerate the environment.

    There are a couple of papers which have been posted on here recently which have found biomarkers for electrosensitivity - it's something to do with calcium channels and I can't remember what else just now as I my
    head is mush and I am just about to go have a rest.

    Anyway, when I am exposed to it, it causes pain in my head, eye pain, visual disturbances, difficulties with speech and word finding difficulties, nausea and muscle weakness.

    So for some of us this is very real, I know the BPS lot and most doctors would say its all in our head, just as they do with ME but hopefully fellow ME sufferers even if they don't suffer from electrosensitivity themselves, will be more understanding knowing what it is like to be on the receiving end of that sort of attitude of not being believed and taken seriously etc..

    I think I was born in the wrong century, if I could even go back to the 70's I would be much better off.
     
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  14. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl ME is not MUS

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    I am sorry to hear that you are so badly affected by electrosensitivity, @Molly98 . There are times when I cannot tolerate placing a cordless phone near my head as it causes an intolerable sensation and I can then only use an old plugged in phone. I understand many of us with ME are sensitive to the new technologies. Those who aren't are very fortunate.

    I think the evidence that it causes cancer is also becoming persuasive.
     
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  15. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I have noticed that the people you tend to find online with electrosensitivity are those with not much knowledge about electromagnetism and biology, which then makes me wonder whether it is partly fear and anxiety about electric, magnetic and electromagnetic fields that is causing their "electrosensitivity" symptoms (since a lack of knowledge about an issue can increase fear and anxiety levels). There could be some mild electrosensitivity effects in an individual, plus a lot of anxiety about it, which then makes the symptoms much worse.

    This study found that certain electrosensitivity symptoms (the effect on sleep) were actually just caused by anxiety, rather than by the electromagnetic radiation itself.



    Did you ever do blind testing of your electrosensitivity? That is to say, getting someone to secretly turn an electrical device on just for certain hours of the day; or turn the device on just on certain days, but not on others, but without you yourself knowing when the electrical device is on or off?

    Then if your symptoms only appear when the device is on, it would confirm your electrosensitivity. But if there was no relation between your symptoms and when the device is on, it would suggest your electrosensitivity is mostly due to anxiety about electrical devices.


    That would be a cheaper approach than going round replacing your ovens, cookers and other electric gadgets.
     
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  16. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl ME is not MUS

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    In reply to @Hip I will just say the impact is very unpleasant and unmistakable as well as totally unexpected the first time it happens. As I improve, the unpleasant and quite powerful sensation from the cordless phone dies down and I can use it again and the landline phone goes into storage until the next time. There is absolutely no doubt at all that the wireless phone is to blame.
     
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  17. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    The thing is, there have been dozens of studies on people claiming to be electrosensitive to certain devices, and claiming to be able to tell when a device is on, on the basis of their symptoms; but when these people were tested under controlled conditions, the studies have almost invariably shown that these people were not able to detect when the electromagnetic radiation from the device was present or absent. See this article for more info.

    So that is why I suggest that people might want to perform their own blind tests at home, to see if they are really electrosensitive, or whether it might just be the anxiety about electrical devices that triggers the symptoms.
     
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  18. erin

    erin Senior Member

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    You can never win:p it's always you can't tell if anything is wrong with you, only the science knows and tells what is wrong with you, that is if anything is wrong really. It's all in your head.:bang-head:
     
  19. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    You don't have to follow those suggestions about performing a blind test. You could just pay for the replacement of all the electrical devices in your home, which is a more expensive approach, but that is your prerogative.
     
  20. erin

    erin Senior Member

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    My comments are for more general aspect of the way we live in a system than the experiment you are talking about. Sorry about watering down the thread. Ignore me.

    I tried to write few things about this subject but I'm not so articulate most of the time and especially tonight. If I can pull myself together, I will try to write why I feel so strongly that microwave technology is a serious danger to health. Maybe not tonight.
     
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