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Biochemistry input on sleep question?--Orexin

Discussion in 'Sleep' started by Sushi, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    I just read an article about orexin and sleep. It seems that orexin (a neurotransmitter, I believe) supports wakefulness and that orexin inhibitors or antagonists, allow the brain to let go and sleep. Pharmaceutical companies are developing sleep meds using this pathway: http://www.news-medical.net/news/20120726/Insomnia-an-interview-with-Dr-Darryle-Schoepp.aspx

    So, I'm wondering about natural ways to inhibit orexin or block its receptors. Here is one article I found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orexin

    To quote from it:


    Does anyone with knowledge of biochemistry have ideas about how we might use this pathway (hopefully through food or supplements) to help us with sleep?

    Best sleep wishes!
    Sushi
     
  2. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Sleep chemistry has advanced a lot in the last decade. I used to know a lot about this stuff - a whole decade ago. There is no substitute for being up to date on this. Some good review papers on sleep chemistry might help put this research in perspective. Its worth noting tht eating often makes people sleepy. Its entirely possible that using this research a late night snack that enhances sleep initiation might be developed. It would be entirely experimental however.

    My best guess is that other nutritional factors should be included. One on my list would be magnesium to counter any NMDA overactivation.

    Bye, Alex
     
  3. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Y'all;

    This is out of my league, but here I am, poking a nose in.

    Apparently, zinc has some orexigenic properties. It helps stimulate appetite in that way.

    But in other ways, such as with melatonin production, etc., it may help with sleep.

    I find that if I take too much of it, I can become very sleepy, and fatigued. So, I'm trying to nail down the amount that is just right...

    http://jn.nutrition.org/content/early/2009/01/21/jn.108.096370.full.pdf
     
  4. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Cough medicine with dextromethorphan is said to be an NMDA antagonist. I can say it doesnt help me sleep but does help for nerve type pain and studies have been done with this med on fibro with good results. One thing i read about it is that it can reduce tolerance to benzos??

    Orexin and food cravings sounds interesting as i have had night where i have used meds and couldnt sleep but then get the munchies have some carbs and then i fall asleep. So i have noticed an increase in apetitte when sleep deprived.

    I cant wait until they start to bring out some more different sleep meds other then just benzo type meds.

    cheers!!!
     
    Sushi likes this.
  5. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Yes, I occasionally wake up in the night "starving" and if I eat a snack, can sleep again. Course there could be some other mechanisms involved too. Still, this might lead to some better sleep meds. The article says that one is likely to be released in a year or two. Course, they will charge the max!

    Sushi
     
  6. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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    @Sushi, this is so funny I was looking in Google and you were the first to come up (this thread) about natural substitute for Orexin blockers.

    First was glucose (not so good) but if one cannot sleep would be nice to try before sleep to see if it helps.
    Berverine is the other option but I am afraid because is a inmune booster so don't react good to those.

    Has any one used berverine and have good sleep ???

    By the way the more I read about Orexin and all my symptoms the more it makes more sense the issue goes that way. It ties even the over production of neuropineprhine, sleep issues, increase appetite.....
     
    Sushi likes this.
  7. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    Doesn't Belsomra work on orexin? I thought I saw a thread on that med...
     
  8. geraldt52

    geraldt52 Senior Member

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    It does. http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/fda-approves-new-type-of-sleep-drug-belsomra.31990/
    There is a 10 tablet free trial of Belsomra available in the U.S. ....I would think that that's the best way to figure out if an orexin antagonist will work for a particular individual. If the drug doesn't work, somehow I doubt that a natural orexin antagonist is going to work, but if the drug does work then maybe a supplement might be helpful, without as many side effects?
     
  9. South

    South Senior Member

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    I think you might have meant "Berberine" (no "v").
     
    lnester7 likes this.
  10. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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    @South, Sorry English is my second lenguage.
     
    South likes this.
  11. Chuck0

    Chuck0

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    I just started trial Belsomra 7 dys ago.
    Absolutely fantastic.
    I used to start with melatonin. .. Then benadryl. .. Then codeine.
    Even then I would wake up at 2am.
    Could NEVER touch caffeine or pay the price of no sleep for 2 or more days.
    Motion sickness pills work sometimes but leave you drugged for the following day.

    So now Belsomra... sleeping from 9:30 to5:30 like clock work.
    A little too tired in the mornings. But I work construction. Once I engage in work and and being physically active then all is good.

    One caution. When I started I was taking DIM.
    FOR 2 days I was completely not able to function at all. .. completely messed up ! Found that DIM reduces CYP3A4...same path that Belsomra uses for metabolism out of system. So I was being over loaded . Got off of DIM and cut back on dose to 1/2 15mg tab.
    Now doing great !

    I have faught sleep since a kid.
    Belsomra is helping with hypertension too.

    I too would like to know of any natural ways to suppress the Orex surplus I seem to have.
    Someone mentioned glucose. ... yep I did that some : wake up at night and eat a hand full of Smarties wirh a glass of water. Sometimes it helps. But really this is not a NATURAL a Orexin modifier. Chunking down glucose is not necessarily healthy.

    I have tried them all. No other sleep aid works. Belsomra really does it for me.
    Would like to use natural if out there somewhere.
     
    geraldt52 likes this.

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