The Undetectable Infection

[Elph68]

Since people are talking 'dysbiosis' rather than 'infection' then I believe it is time for some of you to read these pages ....

http://www.cdd.com.au/pages/disease_info/irritable_bowel_syndrome.html

http://www.probiotictherapy.com.au/pages/diarrhoea-predominant IBS.html

http://www.cdd.com.au/pages/disease_info/irritable_bowel_syndrome.html

IBS is a currently 'undetectable infection' .... CDD in Sydney is the facility that developed FMT ...

I hope this helps to clarify things .....

 

[gregh286]

hi elph,
how are you doing these days....?

 

[Elph68]

hi elph,
how are you doing these days....?

Hi Greg,

Pretty good these days .... I am back to daily gym, not crashing anymore, my stomach has settled but i get severe runs which i reckon is from the abx treatment, my eyes, nose and mouth/throat has stopped burning, (except my tongue goes blotchy for a couple of days after i kiss my GF ). When i sleep i actually have dreams again, the anxiety is totally gone and in fact my employees have been asking me if i am ok as i have 'chilled right out' ....

I have my memory back and my cognitive function and concentration has returned, my muscles don't ache any more and my restless legs have stopped. My lymph nodes which used to be really easy to find as they were quite firm .... are now very difficult to find .... and this choking feeling I have had across the front of my throat is reduced to a point that i hardly notice it ..... I have also had some improvement in my vision .... My joints that used to be plagued with pain now just crack .... pretty much every joint in my body is like this now ...

I still have a month to go on this high dose clarithromycin .... is it sustainable? this is the big question, the difference this time is i am replacing the bacteria that is being killed off with the Kefir .... this should repopulate my flora with good guys and prevent the bad guys from ever taking hold again ....

Unlike most people who only achieve remission, that is not good enough for me ...

I believe that the undetectable infection is curable ... not sure though if all the damage that is done is reversible.

I am feeling pretty good thanks Greg

 

[Elph68]

Something else to throw into the mix ...

It seems calcium build up within the body is the likely cause of muscle pain/cramps, anxiety and contributes to PEM and energy shortage etc. This is a direct result of the undetectable infection .....

 

[gregh286]

Ah elph.
thats great news that someone is winning the battle against this bastard.
how much clarith do u take daily
kefir is great gut loader.
sustainability always issue if we have genetic dispositions.
did ur tongue clear??? or its still patchy and coated.
great to hear bud....delighted for you.

 

[Elph68]

Ah elph.
thats great news that someone is winning the battle against this bastard.
how much clarith do u take daily
kefir is great gut loader.
sustainability always issue if we have genetic dispositions.
did ur tongue clear??? or its still patchy and coated.
great to hear bud....delighted for you.

Hi Greg,

500mg 2x per day.

You may like to see for yourself with regards to the tongue.

Cheers

 

[gregh286]

jees that is clear. I cant keep mine clear and ITS IS DIRECTLY proportionally correlated with fatigue....I would swear that on my life.
Look at the shape of mine attached.
I will start clarith and see how it goes.
These bugs morph and switch about your body......crafty as a fox.

CFS is a full circle disorder....Bacteria / and or microbiome disorder >>>>>> leads to autoimmune ON HIGH alert>>>High Active B Cell>>>>>TH2 shift in immune>>>>>increases cortisol production>>>>>depletes adrenals>>>>>>put hormones unbalanced due to high cortisol...drops testosorone and estrogen thereafter>>>>>>adrenals collapse>>>>>>>distressed hormone state lead to HPA dysfunction>>>>poor blood flow deregulation (leads to side symptoms...brain fog..tingling...POTS..etc)

So hard to find root cause as its like a dog chasing its tail.
fluge and mella are closest to nailing this scientifically...they have detected the blood flow deregulation.eventually they will track it back to microbiome chaos.

Standard geographic tongue to most non CFS people....to me my energy indicator.

Good luck elph......may the tongue be with you.

 

[Elph68]

jees that is clear. I cant keep mine clear and ITS IS DIRECTLY proportionally correlated with fatigue....I would swear that on my life.
Look at the shape of mine attached.
I will start clarith and see how it goes.
These bugs morph and switch about your body......crafty as a fox.

CFS is a full circle disorder....Bacteria / and or microbiome disorder >>>>>> leads to autoimmune ON HIGH alert>>>High Active B Cell>>>>>TH2 shift in immune>>>>>increases cortisol production>>>>>depletes adrenals>>>>>>put hormones unbalanced due to high cortisol...drops testosorone and estrogen thereafter>>>>>>adrenals collapse>>>>>>>distressed hormone state lead to HPA dysfunction>>>>poor blood flow deregulation (leads to side symptoms...brain fog..tingling...POTS..etc)

So hard to find root cause as its like a dog chasing its tail.
fluge and mella are closest to nailing this scientifically...they have detected the blood flow deregulation.eventually they will track it back to microbiome chaos.

Standard geographic tongue to most non CFS people....to me my energy indicator.

Good luck elph......may the tongue be with you.

Hey Greg,

Your tongue is what my tongue looked like.

Tomorrow I am going to post something really interesting .... The comparison of my gut profile when mild symptoms, and also severe symptoms .... Hands down this is an undetectable infection.

Make sure you have 6 months clear of abx. Before you go after this with clarithromycin .... The bugs take 6 months to let their guard down and lose a lot of their resistance to macrolides.

Hydrogen sulphide, D-lactic acid, lipotoich acid, hydrogen peroxide, calcium ---> all those symptoms ....

Long term abx. Low carb/ high fat diet, overdose Magnesium chelate, bicarbonate soda 3 times a day. Co-enzyme q10, methyl cobalamin, selenium, multi vitamins, powdered kelp, homemade kefir and fermented vegetables ....

This protocol is working well .... I still have FMT if this fails ....

Cheers.

 

[Elph68]

I believe in most cases CFS is an overgrowth (infection) of alpha haemolytic, gram positive, D-lactic acid and hydrogen sulfide producing biofilm forming bacteria ..... What our medical people call 'normal flora' ....

The hypothesis is simple ..... Bacteria that form plaque on teeth become prolific in the persons microflora... Plaque causes gum disease and tooth decay, the same toxins that I believe cause CFS.

These bacteria form plaque in the presence of glucose ....... The colon, vagina, prostate respiratory tract, lymphatic system have various levels of glucose ...... So what happens on the teeth theoretically could happen anywhere .... And the good bacteria is pushed out ......

Tooth decay and gum disease throughout the whole body ...... Very simple theory .... The undetectable infection ....

Cheers...

 

[gregh286]

hi elph,
thanks for that. Didnt have ABX since nov 13.
I was symptom free for a few months after that triple ABX in 2013 that included clarith. The bastards re-populate somehow.
I remember distinctly my tongue clear at that time after i cleared the candida thrush post ABX. People think candida is main player here...but i dont think it is....its different strains....like you same gram positive ones.
I would say your strep stool levels dropped.
I done stool sample 5 weeks ago with Kenny de meirler and I was very low energy then. I will clear my tongue and retest stool and compare levels.
DeMeirleir had strong theory on that (H2S) in 2009 but he lapsed it and is now bias towards lyme.

Strange thing...many CFS docs promote stone age eating...I find vegan more beneficial. dont know if these bug prefer animal proteins or what and "stick" or cling to the meat proteins.
Probiotics help a little but they just "bolster" good bacteria.....dont kill bad ones. so you have crowded gut with good and bad.

 

[Elph68]

Hi Greg,

If you have a partner .... There is one source of re-population, otherwise if the abx don't decolonize, the imbalance will eventually return due to lifestyle and the condition returns ....

I caught this .... I have others here the same ....

I won't be distressed if this is taken down by moderator .......

Burning genitals, mouth etc. after physical contact with a new partner, vaginitis and prostatitis I believe are caused by the same bugs.... My partner is one of those that have been diagnosed with chronic deep depression ..... Yet her symptoms are CFS .....

Kefir is a symbiotic group of live bacteria and yeasts so they colonise ...... Unlike commercial probiotics which are transient, kefir bacteria stay.

 

[Seven7]

@Elph68 Just a side note, for those in USA, here commercial Kefir is not real kefir. I found this the hard way, It is more like yogurt. Something to do with the manufacturing laws.... So if you are in USA you can buy kefir grain and do yourself: Milk or water kefir. For us with CFS probably water kefir is extremely easy to do.

For those fearing the sugar in kefir, it is not the same sugar, it has some chemical transformation that it will be ok to consume. I learned this on the gut summit.

 

[gregh286]

hi elp,
did you notice higher thirst during your worse periods. dry mouth might be a better way to describe it....as its coming out again in wee pretty soon...so unlikely dehydration.

 

[Elph68]

hi elp,
did you notice higher thirst during your worse periods. dry mouth might be a better way to describe it....as its coming out again in wee pretty soon...so unlikely dehydration.

Hi Greg .... Dry mouth is a good way of putting it .... My eyes and nose felt dry and irritated as well ....

Cheers.

 

[Mark37]

Hi Greg,

If you have a partner .... There is one source of re-population, otherwise if the abx don't decolonize, the imbalance will eventually return due to lifestyle and the condition returns ....

I caught this .... I have others here the same ....

I won't be distressed if this is taken down by moderator .......

Burning genitals, mouth etc. after physical contact with a new partner, vaginitis and prostatitis I believe are caused by the same bugs.... My partner is one of those that have been diagnosed with chronic deep depression ..... Yet her symptoms are CFS .....

Kefir is a symbiotic group of live bacteria and yeasts so they colonise ...... Unlike commercial probiotics which are transient, kefir bacteria stay.

Hi elph68
I'm 41 and this is my fifth year of this. My symptoms are similar to yours: chronic prostatitis, rectal burning, burning throat a few times a year, insomnia, muscle fatigue, joint pains and muscle twitching and tingling everywhere, and extreme exhaustion at times.

Pinballed around std clinics, gp's, 2 urologists, a dermatologist, naturopath and ayurvedic practioner with no genuine answers or treatment.
Doctors data has led my current gp to use gse extract and colloidal silver to go after alpha hemolytic and candida. Enteroccocus is similar level to alpha hemolytic but am told not to worry... Also klebsiella is there.

Colloidal silver for last two weeks has helped a little. My diet is really clean, no sugar, coffee, flour, junk food etc which helps a little in reducing flares but obviously isn't addressing bugs/imbalances. Kombucha, kefir milk, sourkrout and a raft of herbs plus ayurvedic specific foods. Im thinking this needs to be done in conjunction or after we eradicate bad bugs. Im not addressing the biotoxins...

I have a partner suffering only minor symptoms and our 2 year old son wakes regularly from twitches. None of this is normal and it's very disturbing. He's an intelligent happy boy, but lm worried about his long term.

I understand you're on long term abx and wanted to get your thoughts on your prognosis and also if/how you'll treat your partner and child, if necessary? Sorry if l'm being too personal, you and others here are more knowledgeable and this has been going too long and l'm worried about my son.

I live in Melbourne and have struggled for adequate testing and treatment. I see you recommend bioscreen, are they more comprehensive than doctors data?

Cheers,
Mark

 

[knackers323]

Hey Greg,

Your tongue is what my tongue looked like.

Tomorrow I am going to post something really interesting .... The comparison of my gut profile when mild symptoms, and also severe symptoms .... Hands down this is an undetectable infection.

Make sure you have 6 months clear of abx. Before you go after this with clarithromycin .... The bugs take 6 months to let their guard down and lose a lot of their resistance to macrolides.

Hydrogen sulphide, D-lactic acid, lipotoich acid, hydrogen peroxide, calcium ---> all those symptoms ....

Long term abx. Low carb/ high fat diet, overdose Magnesium chelate, bicarbonate soda 3 times a day. Co-enzyme q10, methyl cobalamin, selenium, multi vitamins, powdered kelp, homemade kefir and fermented vegetables ....

This protocol is working well .... I still have FMT if this fails ....

Cheers.

hi @Elph68 why specifically are you using clarithromycin
I previously had good improvements with it

 

[Elph68]

Hi elph68
I'm 41 and this is my fifth year of this. My symptoms are similar to yours: chronic prostatitis, rectal burning, burning throat a few times a year, insomnia, muscle fatigue, joint pains and muscle twitching and tingling everywhere, and extreme exhaustion at times.

Pinballed around std clinics, gp's, 2 urologists, a dermatologist, naturopath and ayurvedic practioner with no genuine answers or treatment.
Doctors data has led my current gp to use gse extract and colloidal silver to go after alpha hemolytic and candida. Enteroccocus is similar level to alpha hemolytic but am told not to worry... Also klebsiella is there.

Colloidal silver for last two weeks has helped a little. My diet is really clean, no sugar, coffee, flour, junk food etc which helps a little in reducing flares but obviously isn't addressing bugs/imbalances. Kombucha, kefir milk, sourkrout and a raft of herbs plus ayurvedic specific foods. Im thinking this needs to be done in conjunction or after we eradicate bad bugs. Im not addressing the biotoxins...

I have a partner suffering only minor symptoms and our 2 year old son wakes regularly from twitches. None of this is normal and it's very disturbing. He's an intelligent happy boy, but lm worried about his long term.

I understand you're on long term abx and wanted to get your thoughts on your prognosis and also if/how you'll treat your partner and child, if necessary? Sorry if l'm being too personal, you and others here are more knowledgeable and this has been going too long and l'm worried about my son.

I live in Melbourne and have struggled for adequate testing and treatment. I see you recommend bioscreen, are they more comprehensive than doctors data?

Cheers,
Mark

Hi Mark,

You are right ..... Pretty much like looking in a mirror ..... I can honestly say I know EXACTLY how you feel ....

Bio screen will give you specifically what bacteria are causing your problem.

This is my current list of bacteria that I know (from desktop research and personal experience) cause these problems ....

Primary pathogens:
Enterococcus faecalis
Streptococcus parasanguinis
Streptococcus sanguinis
Streptococcus infantis
Streptococcus anginosus
Streptococcus mutans

Secondary pathogens:

Lactobacillus acidophilus and some other lactobacillus species
Some bifidobacterium species

The primary pathogen criteria are:

Biofilm forming in the presence of sucrose/glucose
Hydrogen peroxide producing
Hydrogen sulphide producing in the presence of sucrose/glucose
D lactic acid producing in the presence of sucrose/glucose

Once these primary pathogens form biofilms the secondary pathogens join in and make the situation worse.

Ladies ..... Between ovulation and menstruation the cervix pumps out bucket loads of sucrose/glucose .... These species then start multiplying and producing these chemicals which causes vagina problems ..... Yo may not even realise that you have them .... Or you may be in extreme pain ...... The same is true after intercourse .... Semen is full of glucose/sucrose ..... Thus a lot of ladies have problems after intercourse

Guys .... Prostate is full of sucrose/glucose .... So when they get in there .... It is prostatitis ....... Also when you have intercourse with a lady in that pre-menstruation period .... Highly likely that you will have burning during/after intercourse ..... Especially men that are uncircumcised ..... Like me, I have a lot of men that tell me this happened when they have started intercourse with a new partner .... Burning .....

Guys, if for some reason you get the vaginal fluids in your eyes or mouth during this same period ..... I believe it is highly likely that it will either cause burning, or at the very least a dry or irritated sensation ...... This always happens to me ....

I have a simple test that you can try ..... Get 500mls of methylated spirits and mix a teaspoon of ground turmeric in it. Get samples of urine, semen, prostate fluid and saliva and mix with the metho/turmeric and it should turn scarlet red ..... If it doesn't, then you can show your doctor at least, there is an acid problem ..... Do this every day if you have to .... See if it changes over a period .... Or can be linked to symptom severity .....

Klebsiella makes you lactose intolerant .....

I can't get my family treated .... Because they only have CFS type symptoms sleep disorders and depression.

And yes like you I am very concerned of their future health.

And everybody has these bacteria, but not everybody has these bacteria .... It is when there is multiple species working together that causes the problem ..... That is why it is the undetectable infection ......

Cheers

 

[Elph68]

hi @Elph68 why specifically are you using clarithromycin
I previously had good improvements with it

Hi Knackers,

Clarithromycin is for gram positive bacteria .... Although it is broad spectrum.

These are the abx I reckon are needed ....

Linezolid
Vancomycin
Daptomycin
Keflex
Erythromycin
Clarithromycin

DO NOT USE
Ciprofloxican or other fluroquinolines
Penicillin

Cheers

 

[Mark37]

Hi Mark,

You are right ..... Pretty much like looking in a mirror ..... I can honestly say I know EXACTLY how you feel ....

Bio screen will give you specifically what bacteria are causing your problem.

This is my current list of bacteria that I know (from desktop research and personal experience) cause these problems ....

Primary pathogens:
Enterococcus faecalis
Streptococcus parasanguinis
Streptococcus sanguinis
Streptococcus infantis
Streptococcus anginosus
Streptococcus mutans

Secondary pathogens:

Lactobacillus acidophilus and some other lactobacillus species
Some bifidobacterium species

The primary pathogen criteria are:

Biofilm forming in the presence of sucrose/glucose
Hydrogen peroxide producing
Hydrogen sulphide producing in the presence of sucrose/glucose
D lactic acid producing in the presence of sucrose/glucose

Once these primary pathogens form biofilms the secondary pathogens join in and make the situation worse.

Ladies ..... Between ovulation and menstruation the cervix pumps out bucket loads of sucrose/glucose .... These species then start multiplying and producing these chemicals which causes vagina problems ..... Yo may not even realise that you have them .... Or you may be in extreme pain ...... The same is true after intercourse .... Semen is full of glucose/sucrose ..... Thus a lot of ladies have problems after intercourse

Guys .... Prostate is full of sucrose/glucose .... So when they get in there .... It is prostatitis ....... Also when you have intercourse with a lady in that pre-menstruation period .... Highly likely that you will have burning during/after intercourse ..... Especially men that are uncircumcised ..... Like me, I have a lot of men that tell me this happened when they have started intercourse with a new partner .... Burning .....

Guys, if for some reason you get the vaginal fluids in your eyes or mouth during this same period ..... I believe it is highly likely that it will either cause burning, or at the very least a dry or irritated sensation ...... This always happens to me ....

I have a simple test that you can try ..... Get 500mls of methylated spirits and mix a teaspoon of ground turmeric in it. Get samples of urine, semen, prostate fluid and saliva and mix with the metho/turmeric and it should turn scarlet red ..... If it doesn't, then you can show your doctor at least, there is an acid problem ..... Do this every day if you have to .... See if it changes over a period .... Or can be linked to symptom severity .....

Klebsiella makes you lactose intolerant .....

I can't get my family treated .... Because they only have CFS type symptoms sleep disorders and depression.

And yes like you I am very concerned of their future health.

And everybody has these bacteria, but not everybody has these bacteria .... It is when there is multiple species working together that causes the problem ..... That is why it is the undetectable infection ......

Cheers

Thanks mate,

A relief to FINALLY communicate with someone who understands what all this is about. Thanks so much for your detailed reply and advice.

Biofilms; I've read they can be 1000 more times harder to disrupt than the bugs themselves. I took monolaurin (for its anti viral) for 6 months, feeling better, but not realizing it was probably from its Biofilm busting properties. Doing xylotol but not noticing much difference. Are you on a biofilm buster with your abx?

The Colloidal is giving me 5 hours straight sleep most nights, which is unheard of. Other symptoms have reduced a little, however it's meant to hit gram negative and l too believe the real culprits are gram positive.

Thanks for the abx advice. A doc randomly prescrbed doxy 18 months ago and l could only do 10 days, freaken horrid, did provide prostate relief temporarily but a slew of hardcore side effects. I still can't resolve some tendon damage.

Am seeing my doc in next week and discuss all of this and will update anything useful.. Curiously, she's done a celiac test to see how parts of my immune is functioning.

If l find a successful treatment my plan is for my partner to get on board, then my son based on her results.

My tongue also has a coating, particularly from mid to back of throat.

Best of luck to everybody in this fight.

Cheers
Mark

 

[Mark37]

Hello Elph,

Would you take the vancomycin for 4 weeks (how much?) at the same time as commencing the clarith and doxy?

I'm seriously considering this protocol, plus the fmt also. I 'd like to time it so my whole family can do it at once. I may need to wait until my son is old enough to handle all that abx.

If you have success your doc, as a social responsibility, must prescribe same for your partner and child.

Or perhaps take a holiday to a country where abx are over counter?

A gp and neurologist wanted to prescribe me psych drugs, ffs, once my son showed symptoms they changed to "genetic disposition, l just got it a little later"... Give me strength!!!

Until this thread, in 5 years, l've never read about anybody with this same systemic infection/symptoms.

Thanks for your determination and postings, well done on your progress.

Cheers
Mark