XMRV and ticks

[Jemal]

I found an article about the recent ILADS conference that contained some interesting information about XMRV. Not sure if this was already posted...

Some quotes:

Dr. Joe Burrascano: in chronic Lyme patients, 100% may be XMRV / HGRV positive

They are looking for XMRV in ticks to see if the retrovirus may be transmitted by tick exposure.

In chronic Lyme disease, over 90% of those tested were positive for XMRV

See the entire article
http://www.betterhealthguy.com/joomla/blog/216-ilads-2010-conference-takeaways

I hope we'll hear more about this. I had my own suspicions about ticks as mice are an important host for them. Also there's people with chronic lyme that get treated with antibiotics for over a year and still have lots of symptoms. If it's "only" bacteria causing the disease, the antibiotics should be more successful. They are quite a miracle cure most of the time. It would make sense these people have a virus, which antibiotics can't cure obviously.
The people with chronic lyme also have many overlapping symptoms with us.

p.s. I probably posted in the wrong subforum, can a moderator move this thread to "Media, Interviews, Blogs, Talks, Events about XMRV here" ?
Thanks!

 

[Stone]

Very interesting information! Thanks for posting it. I saw an interview with Dr. Mikovits last year or early this year in which she said at that time that over 40% of her positives were also positive for Lyme, which I thought would make headlines. That's quite a statement. The whole Lyme connection truly thickens the plot, does it not? One of the few diseases that are possibly more controversial than ME/CFS is Lyme, and there is a whole world of politics surrounding it. The CDC is incredibly lame when it comes to Lyme, and in a way that is reminiscent of their attitude toward ME/CFS. Maybe they already know something we're just beginning to find out. Time and research will tell.

 

[Sasha]

Hi Jemal - I think this is the right subforum for this because it's about transmission.

I think this is interesting. But isn't it the case that XMRV has been established as an infection that mice don't have? So even if you had a mouse-blood infusion you couldn't catch it? There was some stuff lately about a researcher testing 70 different mouse strains to try to find XMRV in one and they all came up negative.

Maybe there's a wild strain that carries XMRV? Maybe ticks could be transmitting human to human? Maybe there's another vector for XMRV but if you then get bitten by a tick you get bad and chronic Lyme?

 

[Jenny]

See this thread too:


http://www.forums.aboutmecfs.org/sh...Conference-streaming-live&p=133384#post133384

Brewer made the alarming statement that treatment that produces a Lyme 'herx' can make XMRV more active!

Not sure what the evidence for this is, presumably the hypothesis is that the production of cytokines activitates XMRV.

Jenny

 

[Jemal]

Hi Jemal - I think this is the right subforum for this because it's about transmission.

I think this is interesting. But isn't it the case that XMRV has been established as an infection that mice don't have? So even if you had a mouse-blood infusion you couldn't catch it? There was some stuff lately about a researcher testing 70 different mouse strains to try to find XMRV in one and they all came up negative.

Maybe there's a wild strain that carries XMRV? Maybe ticks could be transmitting human to human? Maybe there's another vector for XMRV but if you then get bitten by a tick you get bad and chronic Lyme?

Yeah, I was wondering about this too.
However, I seem to remember a scientist stating that they now found a variant of XMRV (MLV?) that could infect both mice and humans? Can't remember where I read this though.

We do know ticks can carry and transmit viruses. So it's all possible...
Hopefully they will do some thorough research. If they can find a tick with XMRV we will know for sure.

There's many other possibilities though. Maybe the patients that developed chronic Lyme already had XMRV and when they got Lyme on top of it, the immune system became overwhelmed and XMRV was activated?

By the way: that article also stated 100% of the tested mothers with children with autism where XMRV positive.

 

[Joanne60]

From Better Health Guy blog and feedback from ILADS Conference he quotes 'Eva Sapi, PhD talked about the many exciting projects that her team is doing:
They are looking for XMRV in ticks to see if the retrovirus may be transmitted by tick exposure' Eva Sapi has done amazing research with ticks (she was very sick with lyme herself and so is very focussed ) She found ticks could carry Mycoplasma.

The infections ticks carry can come from any mammal so it certainly does not need to be from a mouse. It is certainly interesting to hear the Lyme Doctors are already finding people infected with both lyme and XMRV
These were some interesting points mentioned

Dr. Joe Burrascano shared: New pathogens will likely continue to be discovered such as XMRV / HGRV
and
In chronic Lyme patients, 100% may be XMRV / HGRV positive

Eva Sapi, PhD talked about the many exciting projects that her team is doing:
They are looking for XMRV in ticks to see if the retrovirus may be transmitted by tick exposure
They did some excellent research showing Samento + Banderol + Serrapeptase (all from NutraMedix) had very significant biofilm eliminating effects

Dr. Joe Brewer spoke on the topic of XMRV:
In one autism study, all mothers tested were XMRV positive and many of them expressed symptoms of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome or Fibromyalgia
In a small sample of MS (4), Parkinson's (1), and ALS (1) patients, 100% of those tested were positive for XMRV
In chronic Lyme disease, over 90% of those tested were positive for XMRV

http://www.betterhealthguy.com/joomla/blog/216-ilads-2010-conference-takeaways

We all need to watch this space because it is well documented that many people with ME/CFS are found to have Lyme and improve on antibiotics as I did myself.

 

[Jemal]

I have been taking antibiotics myself for the last month and have improved also. The improvement isn't dramatic however, like it was in the past, when I had bacterial infections (before I had CFS). I still feel tired and have all kinds of other symptoms, including pain in all my muscles or joints. The antibiotics have really helped me with the feeling of malaise I had 24/7, however.

I think antibiotics might help combat some of the symptoms. Most antibiotics are anti-inflammatory I think? Or at least Doxycycline, the antibiotic I am taking. So that might help with some virus symptoms. It could also be that a virus like XMRV has compromised the immune system and that secondary, bacterial infections are taking place and causing symptoms. Antibiotics would certainly help in such a situation. In both cases stopping antibiotics would probably mean the symptoms return.

I am going to stop taking antibiotics soon, so we will see if my improvement sticks.

(I have been tested for Lyme multiple times and was found negative - I do know the tests aren't very accurate, however. Still, I don't think I have Lyme).

 

[redo]

Thanks for the info Jemal. I think the assumption is right about people with chornic lyme and the connection to xmrv...

 

[YSL]

Not only ticks transmit diseases, mosquitoes and other biting insects have been found to contain Borellia and other infections such as viruses, bacteria and parasites. Due to changing climates, there are many more infected insects.

 

[*GG*]

Hi Jemal - I think this is the right subforum for this because it's about transmission.

I think this is interesting. But isn't it the case that XMRV has been established as an infection that mice don't have? So even if you had a mouse-blood infusion you couldn't catch it? There was some stuff lately about a researcher testing 70 different mouse strains to try to find XMRV in one and they all came up negative.

Maybe there's a wild strain that carries XMRV? Maybe ticks could be transmitting human to human? Maybe there's another vector for XMRV but if you then get bitten by a tick you get bad and chronic Lyme?

Can the mouse be carrier(s) and not be "sick"? I believe Typhoid Mary spread a lot of disease but was not ill from what she carried? Just a few thoughts.

GG

 

[Jemal]

It's possible a carrier (human or animal) isn't sick, but is infectious.

 

[Cloud]

Obviously some kind of connection between Lyme and ME/CFS. A viral component certainly could explain chronic intractable Lyme. But ticks as a common vector for infectious causes (ie, xmrv) of ME/CFS just doesn't add up. For example, how would one explain cluster outbreaks? Ticks rushing Truckee school.....sounds like the makings of a good horror movie. Mosquito's seem a more likely vector. Plum island escapee's?

 

[Sasha]

Hi Sasha,

Xenotropic means:

"refers to a genetically transmitted retrovirus that cannot replicate in the host species that is harboring it but which can infect and can only replicate in the cells of a dfferent species."

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Xenotropic

"pertaining to a virus that is found benignly in cells of one animal species but that will replicate into complete virus particles only when it infects cells of a different species."

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/xenotropic

Hi CF - I didn't express myself very well! What I should have said was that I had thought that XMRV was an infection that mice didn't even carry. One of the big researchers (Coffin? Can't remember) failed to find it in 70 species (strains?) of mice and was still looking, with the implication that even if you had mice in your lab, they couldn't be a source of contamination because they didn't carry XMRV.

 

[Jemal]

Well, another possibility I have been thinking a lot about:

XMRV could be a relatively harmless virus hanging out in like 6% of the population. It does not cause problems, until the immune system gets activated and recognises XMRV. It then launches attacks which cause all kinds of problems, like inflammation, muscle pain, fatigue, etc.

The Lyme bacteria could be a trigger that sends the immune system into overdrive mode. The immune system then recognizes XMRV as well and wants to eliminate it. Even after beating the Lyme bacteria, there is still XMRV the immune system is fighting. As most viruses and especially retroviruses are not easily cleared from the body, symptoms could last for years.

The flu virus could also be a trigger for the immune system, explaining why a lot of people with CFS got their symptoms after the flu.

So in this possibility there is no connection between ticks and XMRV.

Something I like about this possibility is that XMRV is still the cause of our problems, even if we find out it does not cause disease itself. This would mean the virus can't be easily disregarded by researchers.

 

[redo]

Maybe the patients that developed chronic Lyme already had XMRV and when they got Lyme on top of it, the immune system became overwhelmed and XMRV was activated?

Yes, we're on to something there. I've been thinking in the same ways.

If you already have XMRV, which 4-8% of healthy controls have, what then if you get lyme...?
The thing is 4-8% of the population are doing fine despite the XMRV -- healthy controls.
And also some 10-30% of the population test positive for lyme (IgG antibodies), and they are also healthy controls.

But I think the combination of those two are dangerous. And a latent XMRV can be kicked off by a vaccine, child birth, mononucleosis, physical or psychological stress, surgery etc.
You then have XMRV messing with the immune system and causing symptoms, and you have lyme getting room to go from latent into pathogenic. It gets room to grow more freely, causing "syphillis like" symptoms (meaning diverse, from every organ system, everything from brain fog to joint pain).

Check out this video. 2 minutes into it. Only 1/100 test positive for lyme by CDC criteria.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE8gK_cR8VQ

If only 1 out of a 100 test positive, that obviously means we're gonna miss a lot of cases. But more interestingly, why could a group test positive less often than the healthy control group?
A group with chronic lyme which tests positive less often than healthy controls just don't make sense.

Here's what I think. I think lyme becomes non-chronic in all of those who don't have xmrv. They get by fine, it cures itself. But if you have XMRV the disease gets chronic and because the antibody production is screwed over by XMRV you can't manage to test positive with the ELISA (the normal CDC test).

The reason is that the ELISA uses a quantification method. You need to have 1:64 in order to be positive. And your body simply isn't able to produce antibodies in that quantity.

XMRV can infect the B-cells in vitro, and I think they can do the same in vivo.

The B-cells have this task

The principal functions of B cells are to make antibodies

.

So if you have XMRV inside the B-cells you can't make antibodies against lyme in large enough quantities... You test negative, and those two infections can act in a almost symbiotic way in the body (one needs the other to cause the full blown symptom package). And since such large quantities test positive for lyme (and are healthy) I think lyme can be transmitted by other means than just ticks. They can find the lyme bacteria in mosquitoes, here's another one showing about the same. Who knows which other insects it can live in. The fact that it can be in a insect doesn't mean that transmission to humans must occur, but there have been so few (if any) studies on it, so I think we can say with certainty that we don't know...

That's my hypothesis. Feel free to comment.

 

[redo]

Obviously some kind of connection between Lyme and ME/CFS. A viral component certainly could explain chronic intractable Lyme. But ticks as a common vector for infectious causes (ie, xmrv) of ME/CFS just doesn't add up. For example, how would one explain cluster outbreaks? Ticks rushing Truckee school.....sounds like the makings of a good horror movie. Mosquito's seem a more likely vector. Plum island escapee's?

One way you could get cluster outbreaks if you live in a lyme dense area, many people have latent infections (double digits). In the same area there are many with XMRV. XMRV dense area. Double digits there too. You then get a mononucleosis going, and the XMRV goes from latent to active. It's kick started, and then you have begun phase one of the illness. The first months. Later when the XMRV has a better grip on the immune system, the lyme gets active, you are then entering the next phase of the illness, with more symptoms coming. You're then chronically ill.

 

[alex3619]

Hi, the Dubbo studies show that around 10% of the population who get a severe infection (viral or bacterial) develop CFS or something like it. This might mean that the actual prevalence of CFS causing pathogens is closer to 10% than 5%, and the new infections trigger the problem. If it is XMRV as the cause, then we are not finding most of it and we can expect prevalence to rise to around 10% of the healthy population. In this context, Lyme could be another trigger, which would make chronic Lyme disease a form of CFS which should not be confused with more regular Lyme disease.

This 10% figure is also about the same for immune compromised patients.

Bye, Alex

 

[Cloud]

These are some very good ideas that will likely be closer to fact than theory in my view. Another thought is if it turns out that XMRV is factor "A" but needs factor "B" (infections, vaccines, stress, etc) to activate and cause illness, then all those healthy asymptomatic XMRV+ folks will have a huge advantage preventing full blown disease and illness. This should be added motivation for increased federal funding into studying XMRV and ME/CFS.

 

[katieann]

Hi Jemal - I think this is the right subforum for this because it's about transmission.

I think this is interesting. But isn't it the case that XMRV has been established as an infection that mice don't have? So even if you had a mouse-blood infusion you couldn't catch it? There was some stuff lately about a researcher testing 70 different mouse strains to try to find XMRV in one and they all came up negative.

Maybe there's a wild strain that carries XMRV? Maybe ticks could be transmitting human to human? Maybe there's another vector for XMRV but if you then get bitten by a tick you get bad and chronic Lyme?

Hi Sasha,

I being an insidious downhill of ME/CFS starting in 1993. I had no less than 3 lyme tests done, and I know now that the basic screening for lyme `was` only using a default strain of it.

After 17 years of being ill, I had another lyme test done (After I found out I was XMRV positive) last fall using the lab IGeneX. It came back as positive for a rarer strain of lyme and bartonella.

I am so wanting to see more research about the XMRV/Lyme association. I may have gotten XMRV elsewhere (I was near Incline Village, Nevada during the early 80's), and I know I had more than a few tick bites as I was an avid backcountry hiker. But, sicne XMRV is a murine virus, it still does give credance to the possibilities of XMRV via ticks via mice.

Hope they release more study results soon!

~ katieann

 

[Forebearance]

Alex, maybe 10% of the healthy population of Australia has XMRV.