Why it takes so long for dopamine to convert into noradrenaline?

[lyran]

I have noticed that everytime I take a supplement that increases dopamine (for example l-tyrosine, NADH) I get the dopamine boost after one hour of taking the supplement but it takes 5-6 hours to increase noradrenaline. I think I'm low in noradrenaline as it usually has so pronounced effects on me, like it relieves my fatigue and brain fog, makes me calmer and less depressed, helps with POTS and makes me warmer (I'm always cold).

Conversion from dopamine to noradrenaline needs vitamin c and copper. I have supplemented both of these but haven't noticed any benefits concerning this issue.

 

[Judee]

This article talks about it. https://www.vumc.org/autonomic-dysfunction-center/dopamine-beta-hydroxylase-deficiency

I skim read the article but it says that they found L-dihydroxyphenylserine (L-Dops) or droxidopa helpful.
I think @Shanti1 mentioned using this.

Interesting too that they mention, "Parents of DBH deficient patients have appeared normal, but there has usually been a history of spontaneous abortions and stillbirths in the mothers of affected patients."

This was the case with my Mother though I don't think I had some of the other signs of it. I did have vomiting incidents which were odd because no one else in my family became sick.

My 23andme report uploaded to one of the gene sites also shows a lot of polymorphisms in the DBH gene--10 of them out of a total of 17 show on the report.

Edit: Here is the Wiki page on that medication: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droxidopa

Edit #2: Found a website that talks about increasing them with supplements but not too much info: https://www.livestrong.com/article/331983-supplements-to-raise-norepinephrine/
There may be other sites but I'll have to look later because you got me interested in this now.

 

[marcjf]

This article talks about it. https://www.vumc.org/autonomic-dysfunction-center/dopamine-beta-hydroxylase-deficiency

I skim read the article but it says that they found L-dihydroxyphenylserine (L-Dops) or droxidopa helpful.
I think @Shanti1 mentioned using this.

Isn't L-DOPS and Droxidopa the same thing?

 

[Judee]

Isn't L-DOPS and Droxidopa the same thing?

Yeah but I already put the shortened name in parentheses so was unsure grammatically how to show that to avoid confusion but I still caused confusion anyway.

I'm sorry. It was tiredness and brain fog.

Edit: Still brain foggy but maybe this would have been more correct (L-Dops or droxidopa).
I knew I should have bought this book years ago when it came out but never got around to it: https://www.amazon.com/Eats-Shoots-Leaves-Tolerance-Punctuation/dp/1592402038

 

[lyran]

Interesting too that they mention, "Parents of DBH deficient patients have appeared normal, but there has usually been a history of spontaneous abortions and stillbirths in the mothers of affected patients."

This was the case with my Mother though I don't think I had some of the other signs of it. I did have vomiting incidents which were odd because no one else in my family became sick.

I wonder if a person with DBH defiency has noradrenaline defiency symptoms always since birth. I didn't have any before I got sick with CFS.

 

[Judee]

I wonder if a person with DBH defiency has noradrenaline defiency symptoms always since birth. I didn't have any before I got sick with CFS.

Idk. That article made it sound like even though it typically shows up in infancy the researchers were rethinking that a bit with some cases they had come across.

Edit: This page says, "Symptoms may start to appear at a variety of ages."
It also says it is rare but maybe they were not looking for it in people with ME? Like all things maybe we have a variation of it? IDK.

I'm just speculating, as I like so many others here trying somehow to find the source of this disease. https://rarediseases.info.nih.gov/diseases/1903/dopamine-beta-hydroxylase-deficiency

Maybe when they finish that gene study in the UK we'll have a better picture of things such as this. I hope.

Edit #2: Found a naturopathic doctor online who tests for it in case anyone is able to do that. https://drbreckinharris.com/advanced-testing/dopamine-beta-hydroxylase-testing/

 

[lyran]

"DBH deficiency greatly increases the concentration of dopamine and its metabolite homovanillic acid in the cerebrospinal fluid, blood, and urine because of the accumulation of dopamine when the DBH enzyme is less active."

That would probably cause symptoms associated with too much dopamine. I have dopamine defiency symptoms as I'm probably low in both dopamine and noradrenaline. When I crash my cortisol levels also plummet (this has been tested).

This is just speculation because it is very difficult to get your neurotransmitter levels tested in here.

 

[Shanti1]

I have noticed that everytime I take a supplement that increases dopamine (for example l-tyrosine, NADH) I get the dopamine boost after one hour of taking the supplement but it takes 5-6 hours to increase noradrenaline. I think I'm low in noradrenaline as it usually has so pronounced effects on me, like it relieves my fatigue and brain fog, makes me calmer and less depressed, helps with POTS and makes me warmer (I'm always cold).

Conversion from dopamine to noradrenaline needs vitamin c and copper. I have supplemented both of these but haven't noticed any benefits concerning this issue.

I tried loading up on precursors, cofactors, and methylation support, but to no avail. That seems like the place to start, it just that my body still wouldn't convert to norepi. I now take Droxidopa, which is extremely helpful. Strattera is also helpful. Here is a thread which discusses both:
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...wisdom-regarding-this-med.42680/#post-2410381

My 23andme report uploaded to one of the gene sites also shows a lot of polymorphisms in the DBH gene--10 of them out of a total of 17 show on the report.

I have 29 variants that were tested for DBH on my 23andMe raw data, no sure why I have more tested. Anyhow, about 17 show homo or heterozygous for the minor allele, but to be honest, I don't think it has any clinical significance. Most (all?) of the SNPs list are not clinically significant and/or the allele variants occur at a close to 50/50 ratio in the population.

It looks like DBH deficiency is diagnosed by clinical symptoms, serum catecholamine levels (high dopamine, low epi and norepi) and serum levels of DBH. The genetics are still being worked out. This paper identifies several DBH polymorphisms that are associated with DBH deficiency: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK1474/. Unfortunately, none of them are included in the 23andMe data.

I wonder if a person with DBH defiency has noradrenaline defiency symptoms always since birth. I didn't have any before I got sick with CFS.

I think I may have had some symptoms early on like poor exercise tolerance (but I could still do it), apathy, low energy, and low blood pressure (but not incapacitating), but I was still a functional human. I certainly didn't have these symptoms to the extent described in the literature for DBH deficiency.

Now, my blood pressure can drop to less than 80 systolic without compression and medication, but I don't have ptosis (drooping eyelids), nausea, vomiting, or some of the other symptoms described in DBH deficiency. A urinary neurotransmitter profile showed I have low catecholamines, including dopamine, but I am waiting on results from a fractionated serum catecholamine test (dopamine, epi, norepi), so hoping that will tell me more. Testing for BH4 did show any problems there.

I don't think I have classical DBH deficiency, but maybe I have a SNP in DBH that is not yet recognized that causes it to function slower than normal. Or I may have a CNS dysautonomia in the hypothalamus or brainstem causing my body to be unable to regulate blood pressure. It remains a mystery.

 

[Judee]

Just posted this link in another thread on sleep. Posting here too just in case it gives anyone any ideas: https://neuroscience.berkeley.edu/copper-in-the-brain/

Like I said in the other thread, I don't know if just taking a little copper (too much can be toxic) would be helpful.