Where Wessely's funding comes from

Dx Revision Watch

Suzy Chapman Owner of Dx Revision Watch
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Gerwyn,

It was known in 2001 that Wessely was an adviser to PRISMA and member of their Supervisory Board. I have provided two reference sources for that.

In 2001, Hooper, Williams and Marshall published "What is ME? What is CFS?"

In 2007, Hooper/Williams submit a document to NICE in which they make a statement for which they provide no contemporary supportive evidence.

Instead, they give the URL to their own document of 2001.

The 2007 document is therefore not a good source for a contemporary reference in support of your claim that Wessely is an adviser for PRISMA.

You have an LLB - yes? Surely you can accept that.

I don't care who wrote the 2007 document. It does not provide a reference for your statement.

So the problem is, not that I am looking for something that cannot be found but that you have made a statement for which you cannot provide supportive evidence.

Instead you ask me to rely on a document from 2007 which, itself, quotes a document by the same author from 2001 but provides no new source to support Wessely's continued role as an adviser to PRISMA.

And then you tell me that I have not read your answer!
 
G

Gerwyn

Guest
Gerwyn,

It was known in 2001 that Wessely was an adviser to PRISMA and member of their Supervisory Board. I have provided two reference sources for that.

In 2001, Hooper, Williams and Marshall published "What is ME? What is CFS?"

In 2007, Hooper/Williams submit a document to NICE in which they make a statement for which they provide no contemporary supportive evidence.

Instead, they give the URL to their own document of 2001.

The 2007 document is therefore not a good source for a contemporary reference in support of your claim that Wessely is an adviser for PRISMA.

You have an LLB - yes? Surely you can accept that.

I don't care who wrote the 2007 document. It does not provide a reference for your statement.

So the problem is, not that I am looking for something that cannot be found but that you have made a statement for which you cannot provide supportive evidence.

Instead you ask me to rely on a document from 2007 which, itself, quotes a document by the same author from 2001 but provides no new source to support Wessely's continued role as an adviser to PRISMA.

And then you tell me that I have not read your answer!
you have clearly not understood it. wesselly himself admitted it and has never said otherwise. he should know he is the one involved
 

Dx Revision Watch

Suzy Chapman Owner of Dx Revision Watch
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he was an advisor he admitted he was and has never stated since that he isnt----Is that clear enough

The fact that he was an adviser is not being contested (and I have provided you with evidence that he was an adviser in 2001).

It is your assertion that he continues to be an adviser that is being questioned and your inability to provide a reference source in support of your statement.
 
G

Gerwyn

Guest
The fact that he was an adviser is not being contested (and I have provided you with evidence that he was an adviser in 2001).

It is your assertion that he continues to be an adviser that is being questioned and your inability to provide a reference source in support of your statement.
no i said he is an advisor.he is also a consultant psychiatrist.If you dont understand what i told you the ask someone else It is because I have a LLB that I understand exactly the meaning of his apparent retraction. He continues to have the status of advisor .In fairness he has never said otherwise.
 

Dx Revision Watch

Suzy Chapman Owner of Dx Revision Watch
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no i said he is an advisor.he is also a consultant psychiatrist.If you dont understand what i told you the ask someone else It is because I have a LLB that I understand exactly the meaning of his apparent retraction. He continues to have the status of advisor .In fairness he has never said otherwise.

Gerwyn,

I will go through this just one more time and then I will walk away.

Firstly, I do hope someone will correct the spelling of Prof Wessely's name in the subject line of this thread. This is important for Google searches.

The fact that Wessely was an adviser to PRISMA Health in 2001 is not in dispute.

This was covered by Martin Walker in his book Skewed for which I possess a copy.

The pages from PRISMA Health website that had listed SW as a member of the Supervisory Board in 2001 are no longer accessible online or on the Way Back Machine, but I have a copy of the text that a trusted source close to Hooper/Williams held on file.

The text from the 2001 PRISMA Health web page reads:

Supervisory Board

[...]

"Prof. Dr. Simon Wessely, British, is regarded as a world leading expert
in the field of medically unexplained illnesses. He has been publishing
extensively on chronic fatigue and is leading, among other things, the
Chronic Fatigue Unit at the King’s College in London."



I have also provided you with an affiliations disclosure from a journal paper from September 2001:

http://128.121.104.17/cfs-inform/Reviewcfs/editorial.wessely01.txt

Source: Journal of the American Medical Association
Vol. 286, #11
Date: September 19, 2001


[...]

"Author/Article Information

Author Affiliation: Department of Psychological Medicine, Guy's King and St
Thomas's School of Medicine and Institute of Psychiatry, London, England.

Corresponding Author and Reprints: Simon Wessely, MD, Department of
Psychological Medicine, Guy's King and St Thomas' School of Medicine, 103
Denmark Hill, London, England SE5 8AF (e-mail: sphascw@iop.bpmf.ac.uk).

Financial Disclosure: Dr Wessely serves as an advisor for treatment programs
and research opportunities for PRISMA, a private company that arranges
rehabilitation services. Dr Wessely receives no payment for this position, is
not a shareholder, and has no financial interest in the company."



So I have provided two reference sources confirming that SW was, in 2001, on the Supervisory Board of PRISMA Health and an upaid adviser to PRISMA Health.

A fact which I have never disputed and which I am not disputing now.

In fact, earlier this year, I provided this material to a journalist in order to provide evidence that SW had been an adviser to PRISMA Health in 2001.

So that is not an issue.

The issue is this:

You had stated that:

"Professor Wessely is an adviser to PRISMA Health..."

and I asked you for supportive evidence that SW had remained an adviser to PRISMA Health beyond 2001/2 (since it has been understood for some years, that he had ceased that association with the company).

The reference you provided me with was an extract from the Hooper/Williams NICE 2007 submission to the NICE inquiry.

Rather than provide, in 2007, a contemporary reference to support his claim that SW was at that point still an adviser to PRISMA Health and a member of a Board of PRISMA Health Prof Hooper provides only a URL to his own document "What is ME? What is CFS?" which he and Williams and Marshall published in 2001.

I have a hard copy of that document and I have an electronic copy on file.

So in his submission to NICE in 2007, Prof Hooper provides in support of his statement - no new evidence that confirms that in 2007 SW remained an adviser to PRISMA Health.

Instead he relies on his 2001 document.

I have therefore told you that that is not evidence that SW continued beyond 2001 as an adviser to PRISMA Health.

You then start talking about the difference between unpaid advisory roles and employment and contracts. So now you're strawmanning, because I have not claimed that SW held paid employment with or a contract to provide services to, PRISMA Health.

All I have asked for is that you provide a source of evidence for your statement that:

"Professor Wessely is an adviser to PRISMA Health..."

That is, evidence that SW remained an adviser beyond 2001 and is currently an adviser.

A reference to a 2007 document which contained no evidence but references a 2001 document by the same author is not evidence.

It is irrelevant who authored that submission.

It is also irrelevant that it "was not contested".

The fact is, that the 2007 document cannot be cited as a source of evidence as it provides no contemporary reference (the reference being a publication in 2001 by the same author).

In November last year, PR member "Holmsey" posted in a PR thread around his exchanges with SW, you can access that thread here:

http://www.forums.aboutmecfs.org/sh...-Wessely-on-XMRV&p=17218&viewfull=1#post17218

This is the text of that post (Post # 157)

November 26th, 2009 08:18 AM #157


Originally Posted by Holmsey


Great, thanks for this.

Verifiable as to it's veracity, deviod of opinion or emotional content. SW has already implied in mails to me that he beleive's others such as WPI are motivated by monetary gain, specifically in the supply of potentially unnecessary and expensive testing for XMRV. If this pans out then I've caught him in the act of missleading, no if's or but's and that's what I've been looking for.
Ok, another fast turnaroud to SW, I questioned him directly on the specific claim, and as he's given me written permission to post anything he says already, so here's the mail.

Simon, you made reference in an earlier mail about others profiting from the XMRV research, by the supply of testing etc. inferring in the process that as an NHS employee your motivations were above suspicion, but obviously, as this isn't a personal attack, I'd like to here your comments on this posting.
Wessely is a member of the supervisory board of a company named PRISMA. This same company is being paid many millions of pounds to supply 'rehabilitation' programs (such as CBT and GET) to the NHS for use on 'CFS' patients (Mar 2004, [Online]). Wessely is also an officer of UNUM (large insurance company)."

UNUM is a huge disability insurer, and its policies typically exclude disability coverage for functional (psychiatric) illness. They have a vested interest in seeing that CFS/ME stays solely in the realm of psychiatry, and have bought SW on board as a gatekeeper for CFS patients. This is conflict of interest and bias of the highest order, since a finding of an organic cause of CFS/ME is directly against his financial interests. Same goes for his relationship to PRISMA.
Any truth in any of it?

The reply was -

Was a non exec of prisma. (Ie unpaid) for about 18 months cos they said they wanted to do research. Resigned when it was clear they weren't going to. This was god knows when but perhaps 10 years ago. Never ever worked for Unum. Done one perhaps 2 talks at unum sponsored meetings. Not about cfs as far as I recall

As ever the reality I am afraid differs from the fantasy, he says with resignation
.
So people lets go to work, substanciate the original claim with proofs.

[Post ends]


So, when people state (as they regularly do on this forum) that SW "is an adviser to PRISMA Health" or that SW "works for UNUM", I think I am justified in asking for the same level of evidence that a journalist would require in order to support the assertion that SW remained an adviser to PRISMA Health beyond 2001/2 and that he continues to be an adviser, today.

Anything less isn't "safe".

I maintain several websites and I publish under my own name - as such, I have to take considerable care that I can back up whatever I write with reference sources - contemporary reference sources - not a document quoting an earlier document published in 2001.

If you are comfortable with anything less then that is your prerogative.

Should anyone hold documentary evidence that beyond 2001/2002 SW remained an adviser to PRISMA Health and remains an adviser to this day, then I shall be happy to review it.

Suzy
 
G

Gerwyn

Guest
Gerwyn,

I will go through this just one more time and then I will walk away.

Firstly, I do hope someone will correct the spelling of Prof Wessely's name in the subject line of this thread. This is important for Google searches.

The fact that Wessely was an adviser to PRISMA Health in 2001 is not in dispute.

This was covered by Martin Walker in his book Skewed for which I possess a copy.

The pages from PRISMA Health website that had listed SW as a member of the Supervisory Board in 2001 are no longer accessible online or on the Way Back Machine, but I have a copy of the text that a trusted source close to Hooper/Williams held on file.

The text from the 2001 PRISMA Health web page reads:

Supervisory Board

[...]

"Prof. Dr. Simon Wessely, British, is regarded as a world leading expert
in the field of medically unexplained illnesses. He has been publishing
extensively on chronic fatigue and is leading, among other things, the
Chronic Fatigue Unit at the King’s College in London."



I have also provided you with an affiliations disclosure from a journal paper from September 2001:

http://128.121.104.17/cfs-inform/Reviewcfs/editorial.wessely01.txt

Source: Journal of the American Medical Association
Vol. 286, #11
Date: September 19, 2001


[...]

"Author/Article Information

Author Affiliation: Department of Psychological Medicine, Guy's King and St
Thomas's School of Medicine and Institute of Psychiatry, London, England.

Corresponding Author and Reprints: Simon Wessely, MD, Department of
Psychological Medicine, Guy's King and St Thomas' School of Medicine, 103
Denmark Hill, London, England SE5 8AF (e-mail: sphascw@iop.bpmf.ac.uk).

Financial Disclosure: Dr Wessely serves as an advisor for treatment programs
and research opportunities for PRISMA, a private company that arranges
rehabilitation services. Dr Wessely receives no payment for this position, is
not a shareholder, and has no financial interest in the company."



So I have provided two reference sources confirming that SW was, in 2001, on the Supervisory Board of PRISMA Health and an upaid adviser to PRISMA Health.

A fact which I have never disputed and which I am not disputing now.

In fact, earlier this year, I provided this material to a journalist in order to provide evidence that SW had been an adviser to PRISMA Health in 2001.

So that is not an issue.

The issue is this:

You had stated that:

"Professor Wessely is an adviser to PRISMA Health..."

and I asked you for supportive evidence that SW had remained an adviser to PRISMA Health beyond 2001/2 (since it has been understood for some years, that he had ceased that association with the company).

The reference you provided me with was an extract from the Hooper/Williams NICE 2007 submission to the NICE inquiry.

Rather than provide, in 2007, a contemporary reference to support his claim that SW was at that point still an adviser to PRISMA Health and a member of a Board of PRISMA Health Prof Hooper provides only a URL to his own document "What is ME? What is CFS?" which he and Williams and Marshall published in 2001.

I have a hard copy of that document and I have an electronic copy on file.

So in his submission to NICE in 2007, Prof Hooper provides in support of his statement - no new evidence that confirms that in 2007 SW remained an adviser to PRISMA Health.

Instead he relies on his 2001 document.

I have therefore told you that that is not evidence that SW continued beyond 2001 as an adviser to PRISMA Health.

You then start talking about the difference between unpaid advisory roles and employment and contracts. So now you're strawmanning, because I have not claimed that SW held paid employment with or a contract to provide services to, PRISMA Health.

All I have asked for is that you provide a source of evidence for your statement that:

"Professor Wessely is an adviser to PRISMA Health..."

That is, evidence that SW remained an adviser beyond 2001 and is currently an adviser.

A reference to a 2007 document which contained no evidence but references a 2001 document by the same author is not evidence.

It is irrelevant who authored that submission.

It is also irrelevant that it "was not contested".

The fact is, that the 2007 document cannot be cited as a source of evidence as it provides no contemporary reference (the reference being a publication in 2001 by the same author).

In November last year, PR member "Holmsey" posted in a PR thread around his exchanges with SW, you can access that thread here:

http://www.forums.aboutmecfs.org/sh...-Wessely-on-XMRV&p=17218&viewfull=1#post17218

This is the text of that post (Post # 157)

November 26th, 2009 08:18 AM #157


Originally Posted by Holmsey


Great, thanks for this.

Verifiable as to it's veracity, deviod of opinion or emotional content. SW has already implied in mails to me that he beleive's others such as WPI are motivated by monetary gain, specifically in the supply of potentially unnecessary and expensive testing for XMRV. If this pans out then I've caught him in the act of missleading, no if's or but's and that's what I've been looking for.
Ok, another fast turnaroud to SW, I questioned him directly on the specific claim, and as he's given me written permission to post anything he says already, so here's the mail.





Any truth in any of it?

The reply was -


.
So people lets go to work, substanciate the original claim with proofs.

[Post ends]


So, when people state (as they regularly do on this forum) that SW "is an adviser to PRISMA Health" or that SW "works for UNUM", I think I am justified in asking for the same level of evidence that a journalist would require in order to support the assertion that SW remained an adviser to PRISMA Health beyond 2001/2 and that he continues to be an adviser, today.

Anything less isn't "safe".

I maintain several websites and I publish under my own name - as such, I have to take considerable care that I can back up whatever I write with reference sources - contemporary reference sources - not a document quoting an earlier document published in 2001.

If you are comfortable with anything less then that is your prerogative.

Should anyone hold documentary evidence that beyond 2001/2002 SW remained an adviser to PRISMA Health and remains an adviser to this day, then I shall be happy to review it.

Suzy
proffessor wesselly admitted in a public forum that he was an advisor to prima health.He designed their CBT programme.He has never retracted that statement.Ergo untill he does he still is -Simple
 

starryeyes

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The GKT complex also encompasses the Institute of Psychiatry (IOP). The whole of Wessely’s department in the IOP is committed to, and working on, issues relating to the psychiatric aetiology of illness. He is also involved in the King’s College Centre for Risk Management (KCRM), which is researching the perceived health risks of mobile phones and their masts, with the view, no doubt, to finding that there are none.

The IOP receives funding from, among others, Unilever, SmithKline Beecham, Pfizer, Novartis, NPS Pharmaceuticals; Lilly Industries Ltd. (manufacturers of Prozac), Hoescht Marion Roussel, Glaxo-SmithKline (Seroxat), Bristol Myers Squibb, Bayer, Zeneca and Wyeth.

Professor Wessely has been employed or grant-aided by both the British Ministry of Defence and the US Defense Department. He has contributed to seminars and meetings at NATO on crisis management of public fears of terrorist incidents. His connections with the military clearly involve conflicts of interests, and his work on Gulf War syndrome is thus automatically more suspect than that of independent researchers.

Professor Wessely has admitted to being an adviser to PRISMA Health, which was founded in 1999 and began establishing its programme in Europe and North America. Its head office and the corporate staff are based in Essen, Germany, and its president in the year 2000 was George F. Thoma, a German managing partner at Shearman & Sterling, a global law firm with more than 1,000 lawyers based in the world’s financial capitals. Representatives of the US government and the most powerful corporations of North America, such as Monsanto, have visited the company’s offices in New York. Thoma is a member of the company’s Mergers & Acquisitions Group, and practises primarily in the areas of corporate law, mergers and acquisitions, corporate restructuring and privatisations.
Thank you for posting this Gerwyn. This is valuable information for our community. I'm puzzled because people started slamming Gerwyn for posting this after his first post.

All he did was state that this is how Wessely is funded. He made no other personal comments. All of you are projecting your own feelings about this information onto Gerwyn and making him defend his right to post this important information.

Why? Who's side are you on?
 
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Wessely works in the most prestigious London units involved in psychiatric research. The GKT complex also encompasses the Institute of Psychiatry (IOP). The whole of Wessely’s department in the IOP is committed to, and working on, issues relating to the psychiatric aetiology of illness. He is also involved in the King’s College Centre for Risk Management (KCRM), which is researching the perceived health risks of mobile phones and their masts, with the view, no doubt, to finding that there are none.

The IOP receives funding from, among others, Unilever, SmithKline Beecham, Pfizer, Novartis, NPS Pharmaceuticals; Lilly Industries Ltd. (manufacturers of Prozac), Hoescht Marion Roussel, Glaxo-SmithKline (Seroxat), Bristol Myers Squibb, Bayer, Zeneca and Wyeth.

Professor Wessely has been employed or grant-aided by both the British Ministry of Defence and the US Defense Department. He has contributed to seminars and meetings at NATO on crisis management of public fears of terrorist incidents. His connections with the military clearly involve conflicts of interests, and his work on Gulf War syndrome is thus automatically more suspect than that of independent researchers.

Professor Wessely has admitted to being an adviser to PRISMA Health, which was founded in 1999 and began establishing its programme in Europe and North America. Its head office and the corporate staff are based in Essen, Germany, and its president in the year 2000 was George F. Thoma, a German managing partner at Shearman & Sterling, a global law firm with more than 1,000 lawyers based in the world’s financial capitals. Representatives of the US government and the most powerful corporations of North America, such as Monsanto, have visited the company’s offices in New York. Thoma is a member of the company’s Mergers & Acquisitions Group, and practises primarily in the areas of corporate law, mergers and acquisitions, corporate restructuring and privatisations.
Here is some more on ME psychiatrist funding from the sophia mirza website the girl who died of ME

http://www.sophiaandme.org.uk/collusion.html
 

oerganix

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Thank you for posting this Gerwyn. This is valuable information for our community. I'm puzzled because people started slamming Gerwyn for posting this after his first post.

All he did was state that this is how Wessely is funded. He made no other personal comments. All of you are projecting your own feelings about this information onto Gerwyn and making him defend his right to post this important information.

Why? Who's side are you on?
Suzy is simply asking for verifiable proof that SW is STILL doing what it is agreed he WAS doing in 2001. I can assure you, she is on OUR SIDE, as is Gerwyn. She needs more than an absence of SW having admitted still being an advisor to PRISMA Health and more than a reported email of him saying he isn't there anymore.

In her position, she needs to not put anything out there that cannot be backed up with something better than second hand information from a private email. Hopefully, someone will find that information for her. Otherwise, she cannot use it.
 

starryeyes

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Thanks Oerganix. I misunderstood the situation here completely. I was very fogged the day I read this and now rereading it I see what you're saying.

Sorry Suzy and others. I didn't realize you were on the same side as Gerwyn on this issue until reading what Oerganix wrote and reading it again.
 

Dx Revision Watch

Suzy Chapman Owner of Dx Revision Watch
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Thanks Oerganix. I misunderstood the situation here completely. I was very fogged the day I read this and now rereading it I see what you're saying.

Sorry Suzy and others. I didn't realize you were on the same side as Gerwyn on this issue until reading what Oerganix wrote and reading it again.

That's OK, StarryEyes.
 

oerganix

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Clarification from Prof Wessely on interests in PRISMA Health

OK, someone I know asked SW about his involvement with PRISMA and he responded, asking that his entire email be posted without edit, if it is posted. So, here it is:

From:
Wessely, Simon
< simon.wessely@kcl.ac.uk
>
Subject:
RE: PRISMA

Date:
25/04/2010 02:26 PM


My interactions with PRISMA already are a matter of record.



But to answer your questions



"I understand that in 2001 you were still listed in PRISMA Health literature as a member of the company's Supervisory Board and that according to the financial disclosure in a September 2001 paper in the Journal of the American Medical Association, you served as an advisor for treatment programs and research opportunities for PRISMA"



Indeed so.



This is what happened. I had a brief association with PRISMA when i was invited to join their supervisory board specifically because they were interested in research. This is like being a non executive director in an English company, and is not a salaried role. I attended two board meetings in germany, for which i received expenses



After a while it became clear that they were not really interested in research and we went our separate ways. I can't remember exactly when i formally resigned, but it would be when I stopped reporting it as a possible COI so around 2002 i guess



Since then I have had no contact with PRISMA at all. In any shape or form. None. Zero. Indeed, i don't even know if they are still trading. At no time have I ever been a share holder in PRISMA, indeed i have never been a share holder in anything.



I do get a little fed up with this obsession with me in general, and my links with PRISMA in particular. The facts are that my involvement with PRISMA was brief, did not make me any money, was declared appropriately at that time, ended many years ago, and that since then I have had absolutely no contact with them whatsoever. I have made this clear before, but of course that is rarely gets circulated in certain circles, so the rumours, innuendos and slurs continue.



I hope this puts your mind at rest.



Kind regards





Simon Wessely









Professor Simon Wessely

Director, King's Centre for Military Health Research,

Head, Department of Psychological Medicine,

Vice Dean

Institute of Psychiatry,

King's College London
 

oerganix

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Thanks Oerganix. I misunderstood the situation here completely. I was very fogged the day I read this and now rereading it I see what you're saying.

Sorry Suzy and others. I didn't realize you were on the same side as Gerwyn on this issue until reading what Oerganix wrote and reading it again.
No problem, StarryEyes, happens to all of us! Take care of yourself.
 

Dx Revision Watch

Suzy Chapman Owner of Dx Revision Watch
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lol Suzy, you went back and changed it. :Retro smile:
I did, indeed :eek:) and I apologise for all the times I called you "teekjay". "Starry" will be easier.

oerganix, thank you very much for posting that email.
Yes, thanks, oerganix, for posting this - it provides a second source for what "Holmsey" had been told a few months ago.

Suzy
 

starryeyes

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Suzy wrote: I did, indeed :eek:) and I apologise for all the times I called you "teekjay". "Starry" will be easier.
There's no need to apologize. :Retro smile: I'm glad "starry" is easier.

Wessely's actions don't make sense unless he is acting for insurance companies. I think it's fair to say that.
 

starryeyes

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Wowza! Maarten, you are amazing. I bow down saying *I'm not worthy*.

I never really understood why studying logic was so important but you illustrate why beautifully. Bravo!

I think you've said what many of us know is the truth but can't verbalize. If not many, then you at least speak for me.

Where is your brainfog? Ah well, nevermind, glad you can think and articulate yourself so well. :sofa:

+100

And you're right, I think it's fair to guess that Wessely "works" for insurance companies.
 

rebecca1995

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off-topic

From:
Wessely, Simon
< simon.wessely@kcl.ac.uk...

I do get a little fed up with this obsession with me in general, and my links with PRISMA in particular... I have made this clear before, but of course that is rarely gets circulated in certain circles, so the rumours, innuendos and slurs continue.

I hope this puts your mind at rest.

Kind regards

Simon Wessely
I admit to being fascinated by his emails--so smooth, reassuring, outwardly normal. Unfortunately, we know what the reasonable exterior conceals. And why is he obsessed with the idea that people are obsessed with him? :rolleyes: