Were the proteins found in spinal fluid related to viruses or bacteria ?

[xchocoholic]

Hi there ...

http://www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?libid=15959

Do we know what types of proteins were found ? I was thinking that they may have just found the viral and/or bacterial proteins that those of us with Lyme and CFS have. MEANING .. that our bodies are just really good hosts for these. There's a party going on inside of us ...

This link explains that there are millions of types of viruses so knowing what to treat could be a problem. And could explain why some people have a positive reaction to antivirals. I don't know but I suspect that their recovery is short lived if that person is still feeding viruses .. or missing whatever is needed to keep that virus from replicating. The Lysine / arginine connection to Herpes comes to mind ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus

This explains what bacteria are ... same goes for why some people "recover" using the candida diet. Again, you can starve these and kill them off but if you feed these, they will simply regrow ... Bacteria if well fed, will duplicate in quantity every 15 minutes.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-bacterial-protein.htm

We know that Herpes will flare if we don't take enough Lysine and are eating too much arginine. And we know that candida will flare if we're low on good bacteria and eat too many carbs ...

Recently they published a study on how taking zinc at the onset of a cold really does help ...

http://news.health.com/2011/02/15/zinc-colds/

This study on spinal fluid was only done on those with either Lyme or CFS, I wonder how many other people with chronic illnesses have these ? A recent study on Alzheimer's patients showed that they had Herpes in their brains.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-da...heimers-herpes-could-be-a-cause_b_814047.html

So what nutrients or enzymes are we missing to keep viruses and bacteria under control ? And what are we doing to keep these bacteria alive or activate those viruses ?

hmmmm ... Ideas ? ... x

 

[alex3619]

Hi xchocoholic, you raise some interesting issues. I am not aware that we understand the proteins found. Once they are all sequenced, we may be able to determine the source. Some are probably bacteria or viral, some from the patient. Each pathogen or disease tends to elicit a range of proteins in the host, which can tell us a lot about the immune response. Bye, Alex

 

[glenp]

This study was published in 2005


BMC Neurol. 2005 Dec 1;5:22.

A Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - related proteome in human cerebrospinal fluid.
Baraniuk JN, Casado B, Maibach H, Clauw DJ, Pannell LK, Hess S S.

Georgetown University Proteomics Laboratory, Division of Rheumatology, Immunology & Allergy, Room B-105, Lower Level Kober-Cogan Building, Georgetown University, Washington, DC 20007-2197, USA. baraniuj@georgetown.edu


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16321154?dopt=Abstract

This pilot study detected an identical set of central nervous system, innate immune and amyloidogenic proteins in cerebrospinal fluids from two independent cohorts of subjects with overlapping CFS, PGI and fibromyalgia. Although syndrome names and definitions were different, the proteome and presumed pathological mechanism(s) may be shared.

 

[dannybex]

Dr. Yes' interpretation...

Hi Choco,

Good ol' Dr. Yes had an interesting interpretation of the proteins on this page:

http://forums.aboutmecfs.org/showth...id-Analysis-Distinguishes-Lyme-from-CFS/page3

d.

 

[katejones]

From what I understood these proteins are part of some innate immune response, and indicate that there is some infection being fought off (or at least attempted to).

What I don't understand yet is why 700+ proteins were found in healthy people as well??

 

[xchocoholic]

Wow ... Great feedback everyone ... I've been googling like crazy to try to understand all of this. ; ) I was only up on the idea that viruses and bacteria were encased in protein not that our bodies created endogenous proteins (those created within our bodies). And I knew this because I'm taking Virastop and candidase which break up protein wall that encases these ...

Could endogenous proteins be cytokines or antibodies ? I couldn't find that ... Maybe a better question is where exactly do endogenous proteins come from ? Would non essential aminos be considered endogenous proteins because they're created from essential aminos within our bodies ? How about digestive enzymes ?


This was a great report but clearly over my head at this point ... I'm interested in the fact that they're finding these in PGI and CFS patients. I wonder if these proteins have anything to do with the fact that we're the ones who's immune systems have crashed ... Which is why chronic Lyme sufferers would be in this group too ..

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16321154?dopt=Abstract

2005 Dec 1;5:22.

A Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - related proteome in human cerebrospinal fluid.
Baraniuk JN, Casado B, Maibach H, Clauw DJ, Pannell LK, Hess S S.

Georgetown University Proteomics Laboratory, Division of Rheumatology, Immunology & Allergy, Room B-105, Lower Level Kober-Cogan Building, Georgetown University, Washington, DC 20007-2197, USA. baraniuj@georgetown.edu

Abstract
BACKGROUND: Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS), Persian Gulf War Illness (PGI), and fibromyalgia are overlapping symptom complexes without objective markers or known pathophysiology. Neurological dysfunction is common. We assessed cerebrospinal fluid to find proteins that were differentially expressed in this CFS-spectrum of illnesses compared to control subjects.

METHODS: Cerebrospinal fluid specimens from 10 CFS, 10 PGI, and 10 control subjects (50 mul/subject) were pooled into one sample per group (cohort 1). Cohort 2 of 12 control and 9 CFS subjects had their fluids (200 mul/subject) assessed individually. After trypsin digestion, peptides were analyzed by capillary chromatography, quadrupole-time-of-flight mass spectrometry, peptide sequencing, bioinformatic protein identification, and statistical analysis.

RESULTS: Pooled CFS and PGI samples shared 20 proteins that were not detectable in the pooled control sample (cohort 1 CFS-related proteome). Multilogistic regression analysis (GLM) of cohort 2 detected 10 proteins that were shared by CFS individuals and the cohort 1 CFS-related proteome, but were not detected in control samples. Detection of >or=1 of a select set of 5 CFS-related proteins predicted CFS status with 80% concordance (logistic model). The proteins were alpha-1-macroglobulin, amyloid precursor-like protein 1, keratin 16, orosomucoid 2 and pigment epithelium-derived factor. Overall, 62 of 115 proteins were newly described.

CONCLUSION: This pilot study detected an identical set of central nervous system, innate immune and amyloidogenic proteins in cerebrospinal fluids from two independent cohorts of subjects with overlapping CFS, PGI and fibromyalgia. Although syndrome names and definitions were different, the proteome and presumed pathological mechanism(s) may be shared.

I kills me that the above study is from 2005 ... WHAT is going on here ? (I apologize in advance for using the word "gluten" ... lol ... ) BUT ... When I think about how gluten sensitivity is being handled I can clearly see how ignoring medical research happens. Dr. Hadjivassilou proved back in 2004 (?) that gluten causes gluten ataxia and YET no one wanted to hear it !!! Now this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what researchers have discovered when it comes to all that gluten can do ...

Time for me to lay down ... thanks again ... great discussion ... x

 

[xchocoholic]

This says that cerebral spinal fluids are evaluated for viruses, bacteria and fungi ...

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003769.htm

Cerebrospinal fluid culture

A cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) culture is a laboratory test to look for bacteria, fungi, and viruses in the normally clear fluid that moves in the space surrounding the spinal cord.

 

[lansbergen]

Wow ... Great feedback everyone ... I've been googling like crazy to try to understand all of this. ; ) I was only up on the idea that viruses and bacteria were encased in protein not that our bodies created endogenous proteins (those created within our bodies).

Could endogenous proteins be cytokines or antibodies ? I couldn't find that ... Maybe a better question is where exactly do endogenous proteins come from ? Would non essential aminos be considered endogenous proteins because they're created from essential aminos within our bodies ? How about digestive enzymes ?

You lack basic metabolism knowledge. This might be a place to start your search.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolism#Amino_acids_and_proteins

 

[xchocoholic]

You lack basic metabolism knowledge. This might be a place to start your search.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolism#Amino_acids_and_proteins

Thanks lansbergen,

There's no doubt that I lack a lot of things ... lol ... Those who are up on this, feel free to carry on this discussion while I chew on this ... tc ... x

Amino acids and proteins
Proteins are made of amino acids arranged in a linear chain and joined together by peptide bonds. Many proteins are the enzymes that catalyze the chemical reactions in metabolism. Other proteins have structural or mechanical functions, such as the proteins that form the cytoskeleton, a system of scaffolding that maintains the cell shape.[6] Proteins are also important in cell signaling, immune responses, cell adhesion, active transport across membranes, and the cell cycle.[7]

 

[alex3619]

Could endogenous proteins be cytokines or antibodies ? I couldn't find that ... Maybe a better question is where exactly do endogenous proteins come from ? Would non essential aminos be considered endogenous proteins because they're created from essential aminos within our bodies ? How about digestive enzymes ?

Hi xchocoholic, maybe I can help clear up some of the background issues. I apologize if I am stating the obvious, but I thought I would briefly address a range of background topics.

Proteins are long chains of amino acids, sometimes connected to other things such as fats or carbohydrates. The entire body is constructed from proteins and other chemicals. All enzymes are proteins that have a role in making chemical reactions happen.

Endogenous proteins could be hormones, antibodies, enzymes or structural components. Everybody has lots of these in their spinal fluid. We just have proteins that are not supposed to be there in healthy people. In order to identify which these are, they had to identify the normal proteins for healthy people, and then subtract those from proteins in ME/CFS and chronic Lyme patients, so they could find out what was abnormal. Some of these proteins could be structural components of dying cells, and if they are unique to that cell type they can tell us which cells are dying.

Please be aware though that some proteins may be missing from us that should be there. I don't recall this issue being addressed, but it will be in time.

Bye
Alex

 

[clive powney]

What's the betting that the lyme and CFS proteins are pretty much the same (i.e BBB proteins IgA/IgG/IgM, Myelin proteins IgA/IgG/IgM and Neurofilament IgG/IgM). The differences will just be the lyme bacteria and other co-infections. I had these proteins come up in tests done on me a couple of years ago

 

[kurt]

What's the betting that the lyme and CFS proteins are pretty much the same (i.e BBB proteins IgA/IgG/IgM, Myelin proteins IgA/IgG/IgM and Neurofilament IgG/IgM). The differences will just be the lyme bacteria and other co-infections. I had these proteins come up in tests done on me a couple of years ago

I believe one of the points made in that study was that the proteins were NOT the same between CFS and Lyme. That is the big news. We have our own disease, which we have known for awhile, but now everyone else knows.

 

[Mark]

I agree Kurt, that really jumped out at me.

It's a shame that with other things going on these details have been overlooked so far. This is a really important study! A clear distinction, but yet a connection, an overlap, between Lyme and CFS. That's huge!

 

[ahimsa]

I believe one of the points made in that study was that the proteins were NOT the same between CFS and Lyme. That is the big news. We have our own disease, which we have known for awhile, but now everyone else knows.

Yes, I agree. The Venn diagram showing the overlap was helpful in showing this. Some proteins in the center were shared by all three groups but there were also three distinct sets of proteins that could distinguish each group (healthy controls, ME/CFS patients, and Lyme patients). I've attached a small version below but a larger version, and tables listing the proteins for each group, are included with the paper at http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0017287 (scroll down)



This is actually all way over my head but I do think I grasp one concept -- this study found distinct sets of proteins and was able to distinguish between these two groups of patients and healthy controls. That seems important to me.

 

[SOC]

Yes, I agree. The Venn diagram showing the overlap was helpful in showing this. Some proteins in the center were shared by all three groups but there were also three distinct sets of proteins that could distinguish each group (healthy controls, ME/CFS patients, and Lyme patients). I've attached a small version below but a larger version, and tables listing the proteins for each group, are included with the paper at http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0017287 (scroll down)

View attachment 5104

This is actually all way over my head but I do think I grasp one concept -- this study found distinct sets of proteins and was able to distinguish between these two groups of patients and healthy controls. That seems important to me.

Thanks ahimsa! What a fascinating diagram!

There are 1043 proteins found in ME/CFS patients that are not found in healthy controls. Equally interesting, it appears they found 890 proteins in the healthy controls, that they did NOT find in PWCs.

Of the 1043 "abnormal" proteins found in PWCs, we share 305 (29%) with Lyme, while 738 (71%) are unique to PWCs.

So, it seems the PWCs were missing 34% of the proteins typically found in the CSF healthy people, while 37% of the proteins they did have are not found in healthy people. Or am I missing some basic biological principle here?

This is really interesting. Give me a graphical representation over words any time. I'm excited to see where this goes. I just wish it didn't all take so long. :headache:

 

[August59]

Just like Jennifer Ashton said on "The Early Show", people with CFS have a "fingerprint" now in relation to biomarkers!

 

[Mark]

Check out what some of those extra proteins constituting the potential 'fingerprint for CFS' include! - in the second half of table S4 (PDF unfortunately, can't copy and paste the table) at the bottom of the page, and in table S6 - thanks ahimsa!
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0017287

In addition to the complement system which has been mentioned, very significant with the highest percentage, what else is there in the list? Jumping out for me:

"Neuroprotective role of THOP1 in Alzheimer's Disease", "Virus entry via Endocytic Pathways", "Atherosclerosis Signalling", "Glutathione Metabolism", "Lysine Degradation", "Cysteine Metabolism", "Role of Macrophages, Fibroblasts and Endothelial Cells in Rheumatoid Arthritis", "Phenylalinine, Tyrosine and Tryptophan Biosynthesis", "Methane Metabolism", "Nitrogen Metabolism", "Phenylalinine Metabolism",...

These all ring bells as having been mentioned before in other findings...we have the alzheimer's connection there...the glutathione metabolism...lots of metabolism issues...

And in table S6, again specific to CFS, nitric acid production, and loads of signalling pathways...

And I just scrolled through the giant table S1, the whole thing...masses and masses of data there...a huge table, but one that jumped out, an old memory, was the old "zinc fingers" - only in CFS, not in controls or Lyme...

There's just loads here that seems to match up well with what is already known...exciting stuff indeed!

 

[Enid]

Thanks to you all - very exciting research/findings.