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Vitamin D effects on antibody titers, PCR, or Elispot?

Messages
25
Hi, I'm planning on eventually doing a series of antibody tests for things like EBV, CMV, HSV, HHV 6, Coxsackie B, Rubella, candida, toxoplasma, mycoplasma, and various Lyme tests.

I'm also looking at doing a few Elispot tests with Infectolab, which to my limited knowledge is based on stimulating T cells rather than looking for antibodies. PCR tests might also be on the menu as well, as I've read they are good for picking up a select few pathogens. The list is quite long and expensive so I'll be doing these in small chunks.

My question is: Will vitamin D supplementation affect the results in any predictable way? My best guess, and pardon my ignorance if I'm wrong, would be that PCR tests would become less sensitive as the viral load is partially kept in check by vitamin D.

But would antibody or Elispot tests benefit or suffer from vitamin D supplementation, if my goal is to actually detect the pathogen through testing?
I had initially thought yes, since I figured the immune system would be pushed into taking action, but it looks like these studies here are suggesting the opposite?

1) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6108041/
2) https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/141/4/692/4630635 (similar to #1 but without MS)
3) https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/75266 (Suggesting it would hamper Elispot testing due to reducing the synthesis of interferon? Really not sure tbh)

As for the possible mechanism of decreasing antibody titers, I figured it might just be the same as the one I mentioned for PCR (I.E antibodies might rise initially, but eventually it just keeps the pathogen in check, thus there's no longer a need for intense antibody or cytokine response). But study #1 seems to be suggesting this is not the mechanism, or at least not the full story. And as for Elispot, study #3 looks concerning to me.

In any case, whatever the mechanism may be, I'm wondering if anyone here might be able to offer me some guidance on whether or not I should halt my vitamin D supplementation, and wait maybe 2-3 weeks, if not longer (I.E months), before getting these tests?
Or conversely, am I better off continuing to supplement vitamin D?
And as a broader question, what about other vitamins like C?

The reason why I'm asking is because my vitamin D levels are normally very low (found through blood testing), and I've only been able to get them to normal levels by taking 3000IU for vitamin D per day.

Am I overthinking this issue? I would just like to avoid spending a whole lot of money for inaccurate test results.

Thanks for reading everyone!
 
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linusbert

Senior Member
Messages
1,242
guidance on whether or not I should halt my vitamin D supplementation, and wait maybe 2-3 weeks before getting these tests?
Or conversely, am I better off continuing to supplement vitamin D?
And as a broader question, what about other vitamins like C?

The reason why I'm asking is because my vitamin D levels are normally very low (found through blood testing), and I've only been able to get them to normal levels by taking 3000IU for vitamin D per day.

Am I overthinking this issue
i dont know the answer to your question, but i think in your position,

just pause everything you do not acutely need for 2 weeks prior test and call it a day.

i had a vitamin D test, had ~10 ng/ml , i paused 2 weeks, had another vitamin D test, it was ~11ng/ml.
i do not think that taking a break for 2 weeks or even a month would matter for your blood levels of vitamin D at all.
earlier a few years i had like 20ng/ml , contracted corona, didnt take any vitamin D for a year, still had a level of 10ng/ml.
 
Messages
25
i dont know the answer to your question, but i think in your position,

just pause everything you do not acutely need for 2 weeks prior test and call it a day.

i had a vitamin D test, had ~10 ng/ml , i paused 2 weeks, had another vitamin D test, it was ~11ng/ml.
i do not think that taking a break for 2 weeks or even a month would matter for your blood levels of vitamin D at all.
earlier a few years i had like 20ng/ml , contracted corona, didnt take any vitamin D for a year, still had a level of 10ng/ml.
Yea I think you're right about a 2 week or one month time span being too short to significantly affect vitamin D levels. I'm just wondering what the effect would be, however long it would take (I.E months or maybe a year like you mentioned).

I could wait half a year before testing, which will definitely cause my vitamin D levels to plunge given my history, but I just don't know if it would do harm or do good for viral test sensitivity.
 

linusbert

Senior Member
Messages
1,242
I could wait half a year before testing, which will definitely cause my vitamin D levels to plunge given my history, but I just don't know if it would do harm or do good for viral test sensitivity.
dont do. you just dont want the extra spike from taking it orally, after a few weeks it levels and you run on your body stores. thats what you want to test against, the natural state of nutrition in your system.
 
Messages
25
dont do. you just dont want the extra spike from taking it orally, after a few weeks it levels and you run on your body stores. thats what you want to test against, the natural state of nutrition in your system.
Hmm I see what you're saying about the natural state of nutrition. But if I wait half a year won't that be even more reflective of my natural state? (Since I will be off artificial vitamin D for half a year). Sorry if I'm misunderstanding
 

linusbert

Senior Member
Messages
1,242
Hmm I see what you're saying about the natural state of nutrition. But if I wait half a year won't that be even more reflective of my natural state? (Since I will be off artificial vitamin D for half a year). Sorry if I'm misunderstanding
as you want to measure directly on TITERS and not just fixing a deficiency in vitamin D , idk , if it makes more sense to continue your current regime and check how your body is doing under this.. or if it makes sense to pause and then check. or how long pausing it even takes to make a difference.
maybe someone else who knows something about this actually can jump in and clarify.
i just was trying to voice my ideas how i would handle it.

my own case was , how much are my electrolyte levels after supposedly fixing a vitamin D deficient state. i wanted to take a break to see where my body is right now. so i did pause 2 weeks.
but even then some doctors say to continue supplementation as regular as we do want to know therapeutic state and not "normal"non-therapeutic state.
 

Judee

Psalm 46:1-3
Messages
4,544
Location
Great Lakes
Not sure about the D but have heard recently that biotin definitely can affect blood tests. It affects or is similar to something in the testing reagent I believe they said. Sorry can't remember more than that.
 

vision blue

Senior Member
Messages
1,909
Might make a difference for antibodies if looking at igg or iga antibodies. (More affect on latter i woukd guess) Which were you hoping to check?

The tests you want to do are because you suspect some infectious cause of ykur symptons?

Do u feel better on 3000 per day? The numbers of vit d can be deceptive. Is ykur ancestry northern or southern europw, if eiropeqn?

Wonder if you could test antibodies and t cells to one pathogen as a tesr you know shoukd have a certain result to make sure its not intefering

Or reduce to 1000 or on the days yiu test avoid D under hypothesis its the supplement itself not your levels that affect the test resukts

Whether ykure overthinking depends on detaild of what you are trying to test and figure out. Eg work it thru for one pathogen like cmv. What are all the ways you want to test for cmv, what exactky are you hoping to kearn (exposure? Frequent reactivation? Ability to keep it in chrck?)
 

Garz

Senior Member
Messages
374
i have done a great deal of research into testing for various infectious diseases ( see some of my other posts here and on healingwell lyme forums - https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30)

my view is that at these kind of standard doses there is unlikely to be any dramatic effect on your results from vitamin D supplementation - or at least any effect that there may be is more likely to be drowned out by any number of other variables - eg food, sleep, nutrition, stress, medications other infections, gut health, immune system status etc etc etc that all effect the immune system in some way - so i would say you are overthinking it.

serology for chronic infections is a very problematic tool indeed - its only in use because historically that's all we had and so its cheap and available - there are many many papers showing patients do not produce the expected antibodies in many cases - once an infection is chronic - and plenty of cases of infectious diseases where serology is negative but PCR or culture is positive -

even the very conservative NHS RIPL laboratory in Portland down carries a note on all infectious disease tests that says "serology is unlikely to be useful in diagnosis of infections after 6 months or more"

serology is also not a direct test - ie does not measure infection - instead it is only an indirect marker -measuring "what is the immune system doing"
there is also cross reactivity issues - eg Lyme / toxoplasmosis /Epstein Barr

for this reason i believe its a good idea to use several tests for each target suspect - each with different technologies to give yourself abetter view of what might be going on.
it is expensive - but loss of earnings alone will pay for it in a month or so

PCR is an excellent technology - with very good sensitivity and specificity - so you would think that would be nearly fool proof - but alas the story does not end there.
it relies on their being actual bacterial DNA in approx. 0.5ml ( or less) of the sample that is fed into the machine - in many of these chronic infections the organisms are not floating around in the circulating blood in a nicely evenly mixed form - guaranteeing bacteria in each blood sample - instead they may be buried in tissue - or fixed in biofilm colonies - or sequestered in capillaries away from the general blood flow. if its not in the sample - the PCR test cannot detect it. as a result its suitability varies with pathogen and pathogen behaviour.
eg PCR of blood for lyme in chronic infection is very poor.

if you have Elispot tests done its probably worth also having CD57+ counts done as i am told by the test labs that FALSE NEGATIVE Elispots are known to occur in patients with v low counts of CD57+
 
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Messages
5
Hmm.. my CD57 is 0.017 (x10*9/L) [normal range 0.036 - 0.212]. Is it your understanding from the labs that this may suggest my lyme Elispot results (Armin labs) could be a false positive? I was under the impression that lyme (among other bacterial infections) would be the cause of depleted CD57, so it never occured to me that something else was causing this and then mimicked lyme serology results.
 

Garz

Senior Member
Messages
374
Hmm.. my CD57 is 0.017 (x10*9/L) [normal range 0.036 - 0.212]. Is it your understanding from the labs that this may suggest my lyme Elispot results (Armin labs) could be a false positive? I was under the impression that lyme (among other bacterial infections) would be the cause of depleted CD57, so it never occured to me that something else was causing this and then mimicked lyme serology results.

the best understanding i could come to from my discussion with the lab representative is that low CD57+ counts are associated with also low lymphocyte function - and its this low lymphocyte function that is then likely to cause FALSE NEGATIVE ( apologies - when i wrote False positive results above it was some kind of typo, i don't know how i did that - it should have read false negative - i will go back and edit it) test results on ELISPOT tests ( a form of lymphocyte transformation test) - because this test is measuring the activity of lymphocytes reacting to Lyme antigens - and if there are markers of severe immune disruption ( like v low CD57+ counts) then these reactions may not be happening as expected.

in general with lyme testing - false positives seem far less common than false negatives - so any positive result should be given more weight than a negative one

ref there being something else involved - the general picture that is emerging from studies over the last 10 or more years and prominent LLMD's is that Lyme on its own is seldom enough to make people chronically ill - usually there are other infections in the mix
the 3 B's being just the most common ones - Borrelia ( lyme), Bartonella, Babesia

it seems likely that lyme or something else weakens the immune system, which then allows other infections to get a hold
 
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