under methylation,over methylation, and precursers (laymans version)

[markmc20001]

HI folks,

I stumbled accross these really great artciles that describe how one may react if they are an "undermethylator", "overmethylator", and what particular supplemetns one may try to boost those pathways. :victory::tongue:

This is a discussion which tries to outline the points of methylation and establish some relationships that will result in the practical application of the information.

The issue of a person being an under or over methylator can be confusing. It may not be one of the all time critically defining issues, but it may help in the general sense. Several common supplements often recommended for those with autism spectrum conditions are involved in this process (this is just one of the processes these supplements may help with).

http://www.enzymestuff.com/methylation.htm


Each of us has innate biochemical factors which influence mental health, immune function, allergic tendencies, and more. Scientists tell us that the number of different genetic combinations possible in a child from the same two parents exceeds forty-two million. It’s interesting to note that we do not possess a combination of characteristics from our parents, but instead have a diverse collection of characteristics from many ancestors on both sides of the family.

Except for identical twins, each human being has unique biochemistry resulting in quite diverse nutritional needs. Shakespeare was correct when he wrote, "One man’s meat is another man’s poison." For example, some of us are genetically suited for a vegetable-based diet and others are not. Some people can satisfy their nutritional needs by diet alone and others must have nutritional supplements to overcome genetic aberrations.


http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/pfeiffer.htm

 

[susan]

Thanks for this great article. I am being treated now for Over Methylation and am wondering about the Pyroluria.

 

[garcia]

susan, how are you being treated for overmethylation?

Mark, that enzymestuff article is a classic. I must have read it a dozen times, last time this morning coincidentally.

Some Notes I made:

Niacin uses up methyl-groups so good for excess

Over-methylation = excess Dopamine, Norepinephrine, Serotonin

Sign of over-methylation = reacting badly to serotonin raising agents (e.g. 5htp, St John's wort etc.)

Methylation precursors: B6, Magnesium, Folate, B12, TMG, Zinc

Methylation: - healing, energy, gene expression, silencing viral RNA, Immunity, neurotransmitters.

 

[markmc20001]

Hey susan,

You mind if I ask what makes you think you are an "overmethylator"? I'm kind of interested in this becuase I was measured for seratonin levels by my doc and he said I had high levels. I also was measured one time for B6 and it was high. I can also tolerate high levels of methylfolate compared to some trying freddd's b12 protocol. All the above, according to my limited brain fogged reading today, appear to be symptoms/indicators of "overmethylation"?

the nagging problem for me with this whole methylation puzzle at the moment is.....I have had moments where I can switch on my detox pathways (primarily using NAC, or having a good diet vitain day) and can feel like a different person, however I can't seem to maintain that methylation momentum without developing nerve pain in my feet(or hitting the wall soe other way). I can only hope science will solve this whole mess in five years!

thanks garcia. Especially about the niacin! This is new to me, i guess I need to venture off into other sites a bit more and try and read this stuff. I always am happy to find an article I can comprehend, :victory: as much of it sees to be written in medical/scientific jargon.

 

[anne_likes_red]

healing, energy, gene expression, silencing viral RNA, Immunity, neurotransmitters.

Yes please!!!

 

[susan]

Today when I read this great article I realized my test results from Metametrix pointed to over methylation. Why? ...because my neurotransmitters are thru the roof, that is my only reason for saying this. Doc says he wonders why my brain is not fried. He is treating me for methylation...he did not say under or over......... treating me with folinic acid and a mix of other vitamins which were in short supply coming from the test. I strangely had nearly enough B12 but making no folic acid. I had no problem taking Fredds methyl folate. I am making glutathione but cant utilize it because of a genetic deformity in the metabolism. This neurotransmitter thing he claims is partly coming from the dysbiosis and we know that 70 % of neurotransmitters are made in the gut. I have quite lot wrong in that area so am taking 2 kinds probiotics to repair the gut.....plus 4 cod liver oil , TMG Intestaclear. and DPP1V enzymes with food.

 

[Hysterical Woman]

Today when I read this great article I realized my test results from Metametrix pointed to over methylation. Why? ...because my neurotransmitters are thru the roof, that is my only reason for saying this. Doc says he wonders why my brain is not fried. He is treating me for methylation...he did not say under or over......... treating me with folinic acid and a mix of other vitamins which were in short supply coming from the test. I strangely had nearly enough B12 but making no folic acid. I had no problem taking Fredds methyl folate. I am making glutathione but cant utilize it because of a genetic deformity in the metabolism. This neurotransmitter thing he claims is partly coming from the dysbiosis and we know that 70 % of neurotransmitters are made in the gut. I have quite lot wrong in that area so am taking 2 kinds probiotics to repair the gut.....plus 4 cod liver oil , TMG Intestaclear. and DPP1V enzymes with food.

Hi Susan,

How do you know about the genetic deformity in the metabolism? If you are making glutathione does mean the levels for you are "normal". I had a glutathione test a couple of years ago from Immunosciences Labs and it was in the normal range.

And info is appreciated.

Thanks,

Maxine

 

[markmc20001]

Today when I read this great article I realized my test results from Metametrix pointed to over methylation. Why? ...because my neurotransmitters are thru the roof, that is my only reason for saying this. Doc says he wonders why my brain is not fried. He is treating me for methylation...he did not say under or over......... treating me with folinic acid and a mix of other vitamins which were in short supply coming from the test. I strangely had nearly enough B12 but making no folic acid. I had no problem taking Fredds methyl folate. I am making glutathione but cant utilize it because of a genetic deformity in the metabolism. This neurotransmitter thing he claims is partly coming from the dysbiosis and we know that 70 % of neurotransmitters are made in the gut. I have quite lot wrong in that area so am taking 2 kinds probiotics to repair the gut.....plus 4 cod liver oil , TMG Intestaclear. and DPP1V enzymes with food.

Hey susan good info. what neurotransmitter you speaking of?

here are a few clues for me, that leads me to believe I am over-methylated....
My docotor had me take a seratonin test one day when I was really depressed. It was normal, he was baffled and couldn't explain why I seemd depressed when my cheicals seemed normal he comented he hadn't seen that before.. also when I take that celexa, welbutrin or any antidepressant that boosts norapenpherine(sp?) I get reall wired and spacey. that's a neuro tranmsitter I think....

I take the the metagenics folapro(i think this is considerd folinic acid) like eating M & M's, either I am very deficient or just wasting it. I would like to get up to the 4800 mcg dose and see what happens. I also respnd very well the the AB12 and the MB12.

I know what you mean about the gut(not that I have any scietific background). I can say empirically, that foods I eat can severly affect my mood, and also, my GI symptoms seem to be correlated with my mood.

I would be interested in hearing what others have to say, that have tried freddd's protocol, if they feel they are an underethyaltor, or over-methylaotr and what works best for them in the methylation supplement realm.

sorry about the missing letters in my text, I think my keyboard is fatigued this morning

 

[markmc20001]

folinic acid

Today when I read this great article I realized my test results from Metametrix pointed to over methylation. Why? ...because my neurotransmitters are thru the roof, that is my only reason for saying this. Doc says he wonders why my brain is not fried. He is treating me for methylation...he did not say under or over......... treating me with folinic acid and a mix of other vitamins which were in short supply coming from the test. I strangely had nearly enough B12 but making no folic acid. I had no problem taking Fredds methyl folate. I am making glutathione but cant utilize it because of a genetic deformity in the metabolism. This neurotransmitter thing he claims is partly coming from the dysbiosis and we know that 70 % of neurotransmitters are made in the gut. I have quite lot wrong in that area so am taking 2 kinds probiotics to repair the gut.....plus 4 cod liver oil , TMG Intestaclear. and DPP1V enzymes with food.

Here is an interesting link on folinic acid. Looks like they are using the folinic acid, with meds, for cancer.

http://www.chemocare.com/bio/folinic_acid.asp

 

[garcia]

Hi Mark,
weird that you can take so much folapro and not react (btw folinic acid is a different form of folate).

How much vitamin D do you take?

I'm definitely an undermethylator. Low energy, low neurotransmitters, low immunity. React strongly to low doses of the active folates. But I have a tendency for one or more pathways to become overactive if I take too much of certain things.

 

[markmc20001]

active folate, methylfolate, folinic acid, L-5-methyl tetrahydrofolate, l methylfolat

Hi Mark,
weird that you can take so much folapro and not react (btw folinic acid is a different form of folate).

How much vitamin D do you take?

I'm definitely an undermethylator. Low energy, low neurotransmitters, low immunity. React strongly to low doses of the active folates. But I have a tendency for one or more pathways to become overactive if I take too much of certain things.

I take about 4000to8000 units a day of vitamin d3.

You know this folinic acid appears to have like 4 or more different names to refer to it, but I think it is the same thing. I see it called active folate, methylfolate, folinic acid, L-5-methyl tetrahydrofolate, l methylfolate.

active folate apears to be prescribed and used to help treat cancer(leucovorin) and also depression(deplin) how interesting is that????

 

[garcia]

Active Folates

Mark there are two different substances both referred to (somewhat confusingly) as active folate:

1. L-5-methyl tetrahydrofolate, l methylfolate, methylfolate are the same thing. Also known by the brand name folapro. Deplin (which you mentioned is an antidepressant) is l-methylfolate.

2. Then there is folinic acid, also known as (calcium or sodium) folinate, which is a different substance, but still an active folate. Leucovorin is actually folinic acid.

The supplement Actifolate (used in Rich's simplified protocol) actually contains both the above active forms of folate, as well as regular folic acid.

 

[Freddd]

Under and Over methylation symptoms and characteristics

Here is a collection of symtoms, signs and chracteristics of overmethylators and undermethylators from several sources. A few specific items are footnoted. I found the specific interesting. The consensus as to which is what is a bit fuzzy. Some things like depression show up on both lists according to different people. Many of the symptoms on BOTH lists are active b12 and folate deficiency symptoms. As far as response to b12 and folates are concerned, I'm just including what the sources say, not what I think. The ONLY thing they are all (sources) in full agreement on is response to SAM-e.



UNDER METHYLATORS

Depression
High salivary flow
High tear flow
Never dry eyes
Good tolerance of cold
Poor tolerance of heat
Unexplained nausea
Hyperactivity
Frequent colds and flu
Phobias
Highly motivated
Hard driving personality
Poor pain tolerance
Joint pain
Joint swelling
Joint stiffness
Excess perspiration
Addictive tendencies
bipolar disorder
OCD
Schizophrenia
Insomnia
Muscle pains
Abundant or excess saliva in mouth
Obsessive compulsive
Slenderness
Do worse on b12 and folates (4)
Shopping/gambling disorders
Oppositional –defiant
Seasonal depression
Inhalant allergies
Frequent headaches,
Perfectionism
Competitiveness
Asthma
Vasomotor rhinitis
Allergic skin disorders
Pruritis
Excess stomach acid
Fatigue
High libido
Sparse body hair
Elevated absolute basophils
Extreme internal anxiety despite outwardly calm
Delusion thinking rather than hallucinations
Respond well to SAM-e, methionine, avoid folic acid (1)
Anorexia/bulimia
Low serotonin
Low dopamine
Low norepinephrine
Psychosis
Prone to hives
High motivation



OVER METHYLATORS

Elevated serotonin
Elevated dopamine
Elevated norepinephrine
High religiosity
High artistic/musical ability
Self injury
Auditory hallucinations
Absence of seasonal inhalant allergies
Frequent dry eyes
Multitude of chemical sensitivities
Multitude of food sensitivities
High anxiety evident to all
Low libido
Obsessions but not compulsions
Paranoia
Auditory hallucinations
Underachievement as child
Heavy body hair
Hyperactivity
Nervous legs
Grandiosity
Respond well to b12 but avoid SAM-e, inositol, methionine TMG and DMG (1)
Treatment revolves around folic acid, niacin, B12, and a high protein diet. (2)
Depression
Despair
Panic attacks
Upper body pain
Head pain
Nervous
Low salivary
Low tears
High pain tolerance
Low motivation
“space cadet”
Learning disabilities
Intolerance to SSRI drugs
Low perspiration


1 http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030525/msgs/229704.html
2 http://www.favoritedr.com/anxiety.html
3 http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/cond/C446553.html
4 http://www.latitudes.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=837

 

[markmc20001]

Freddd: gee wiz. tuff nut to crack.

Thanks for the clarification garcia on folates. I was hoping somebody would set me straight on that.

 

[susan]

When I asked my Doc/naturopath today what type of methylator I was hes said UNDER. This is despite the high neurotransmitters levels. My result was gauged from my Organic acid test. I thought I had many pointers to Pyroluria but my test reveals too much Zinc so that has ruled that out.

Anne...... the Doc gets his Pyroluria testing is done in Melbourne Bioconcepts I think.

 

[anne_likes_red]

Susan

When I asked my Doc/naturopath today what type of methylator I was hes said UNDER. This is despite the high neurotransmitters levels. My result was gauged from my Organic acid test. I thought I had many pointers to Pyroluria but my test reveals too much Zinc so that has ruled that out.

Anne...... the Doc gets his Pyroluria testing is done in Melbourne Bioconcepts I think.

Thank you! (My Mum flew to Melbourne today...should have had her take a sample!:Retro smile

How did the doc measure your zinc? I was low in a hair sample and have always had white spots on my nails so I think i'll pursue the pyroluria thing a bit further.

Best,
Anne.

 

[susan]

anne,
I guess the mineral test done on my hair in the US.......plenty of zinc.

 

[Freddd]

I take about 4000to8000 units a day of vitamin d3.

You know this folinic acid appears to have like 4 or more different names to refer to it, but I think it is the same thing. I see it called active folate, methylfolate, folinic acid, L-5-methyl tetrahydrofolate, l methylfolate.

active folate apears to be prescribed and used to help treat cancer(leucovorin) and also depression(deplin) how interesting is that????

Hi Markmc,

Folinic acid is an intermediate form part way from folic acid to methylfolate. It was put on the market by vitamin companies when methylfolate and metafolin were unavalable to them and there was growing awareness of how ineffective folic acid can be. It requires fewer steps to finish converting it to the active form and is thought to possibly be more effective than folic acid. I have never tried it and can't judge it's relative effectivness.

Metafolin is a patented manufacturing process form of stable methylfolate developed by Merck and licensed to Pan American which puts out several precription forms of it under several names. Several vitamin companies also are licensed to sell Metafolin. Metafolin is the one I have tested with tremendous effectiveness. Companies listing just plain methylfolate of several forms are not selling Metafolin. These other forms have not undergone the testing for absorbtion, stability and function that Metafolin has passed as a pharmaceutical. I hope that clarifies the differences.

Methylb12, Metafolin, SAM-e and TMG all have anti-depression results and all work together synergistically.

 

[Freddd]

My experience prompts me to use a different terminolgy from under and over methylators. These are all genetic tendencies at best. In actual practice I have found that people are very often "depleted methylators" or maybe in different terminology "blocked methylators" regardless of what their genetic tendencies theoretically are. Many of these assumptions come from a backround of tests performed on people that are chronically deficient of active folate and active b12s. I had approximately equal numbers of active b12/folate deficiency symptoms from BOTH lists of "under" and "over" methylators. To this day I can't tell you what I actually am in that schema as it just doesn't make sense in terms of what was wrong and what fixed it. Active b12s with Metafolin, as many active b-complex components as possible, basic cofactors and selected critical cofactors all played their part in fixing my symptoms from BOTH lists allowing my body to be healthy and normalized. Personally I thionk way to much attention is applied to the over/under situation, both of which may be artifacts of inactive pseudo vitamins and how people respond to those.

 

[Cloud]

My experience prompts me to use a different terminolgy from under and over methylators. These are all genetic tendencies at best. In actual practice I have found that people are very often "depleted methylators" or maybe in different terminology "blocked methylators" regardless of what their genetic tendencies theoretically are. Many of these assumptions come from a backround of tests performed on people that are chronically deficient of active folate and active b12s. I had approximately equal numbers of active b12/folate deficiency symptoms from BOTH lists of "under" and "over" methylators. To this day I can't tell you what I actually am in that schema as it just doesn't make sense in terms of what was wrong and what fixed it. Active b12s with Metafolin, as many active b-complex components as possible, basic cofactors and selected critical cofactors all played their part in fixing my symptoms from BOTH lists allowing my body to be healthy and normalized. Personally I thionk way to much attention is applied to the over/under situation, both of which may be artifacts of inactive pseudo vitamins and how people respond to those.

Thanks for the information Fredd, and everyone. I too have equal numbers of characteristics from both the under & over Methylator list, so that doesn't help me much with diagnostics. It has been many years since I have done Neurotransmitter levels and they were normal. My last homocystein level (10 years ago) was very high.
I came to believe I have a "blocked methylation" problem primarily based on an extreme intolerance of certain meds and other supplements. One of my earliest symptoms was med intolerance....not sensitivity, intolerance. The biggest offenders are antidepressants and antibiotics. I start off the first few days feeling great improvement, but then after day 2 or 3, begin to feel more and more "toxic". If I continue the med, I will end up more and more ill with a feeling extreme toxicity. Many years ago I discovered a great response to supplement SAMe. But I would then get the same reaction with the SAMe as with the other meds....feel great for 2-3 days, then begin to feel toxic. To this day, I react exactly the same to the same meds and to SAMe supplementation. This is all I have basically gone on to self diagnose as having a methylation block. Any advice is appreciated.

also, can anyone tell me why I don't see references to Dr Kunin in any of the methylation groups and studies around the forums? Seems odd because I thought he pioneered the work.