Undenatured whey

[Strawberry]

A few years ago the big treatment was undenatured whey, I think promoted by dr Cheney. I was wondering if there are new brands of whey that others are taking that really help? Hopefully that can be bought on Amazon, not a doctor?

Over the last few years I’ve taken Tera’s Whey, before I knew it was undenatured. It did help a bit, but supposedly the brand (that I can’t find) that dr Cheney promoted helped much more.

There are tons of new brands of undenatured whey now on Amazon, hoping to hear of a few that work well for us.

 

[xebex]

I tried the suggested brand by Dr Cheney it’s called immune pro and didn’t noticed any change. I used it for three months. However I’m open to try it again as I’ve had other improvements so maybe that’s cleared the way for it to work. I did have a small improvement using colostrum but it also gave me panic attacks I think caused by the die off or change in gut biome. But I did noticed a very small improvement of energy after taking for two weeks but had to quit due to the scary panic attacks. I’d also be open to trying that again too.

 

[Strawberry]

So has everyone given up on whey? I do sometimes get a benefit, but minimal. Minimal is acceptable..... But it is expensive....

 

[xebex]

I’ve not given up but yes rather small benefit for the price. I have other things to try but will try it again.

 

[alex3619]

From 1990 or so to 2001 Immunocal gave me the energy to finish my biochemistry degree. However in 2001 I got a very unpleasant side effect, an all over burning sensation, and it was very intense. I had to stop the product, which made the last year of my degree much harder. The timing of the burning coincided with the time my dead white hands, with little circulation, went pink, and even red on one occasion . . . bright red like the storied Rudolf's nose. My palms glowed, and at one point I thought one of my red pens must have leaked and got onto my hands. I suspect restoration of peripheral circulation might have led to a kind of neuropathic pain.


There is no telling how individuals may react on many products. All people like Dr Cheney can do is point out some have improved. There are no guarantees.

 

[Strawberry]

I’ve not given up but yes rather small benefit for the price. I have other things to try but will try it again.

Curious what you are wanting to try. It sounds like the whey theory has fallen to the back burner!

 

[Strawberry]

@alex3619 very interesting story. So you haven’t tried whey since 2001?

 

[Strawberry]

My personal thoughts on whey is that I often need meal replacement, and I might as well get one that can help me, even if minimally. But there are so many products out there with false advertising...

 

[xebex]

Curious what you are wanting to try. It sounds like the whey theory has fallen to the back burner!

I have tried many things but currently my next thing is not a supp but going to an internist and see if I can get some kind of ANS work up. I dont seem to have POTs but I cannot be upright for more than a few minutes so I musthave some kind of orthostatic intolerance and I think I may have small fibre neuropathy. I do believe some kind of spinal injury is a major part of my ME.

I was starting the cusack protocol but I can’t afford the aloe juice in top of everything else.

PQQ had some small affect on my energy levels but When I’ve stopped before I’ve dropped in function so not sure if I should stop it. But that’s expensive too!

NAC helps the toxic feeling.

Theanine helps anxiety.

magnesium helps restless legs

Nothing I’ve taken has really affected the ME as a whole but has made improvements with certain symptoms.

I have a whole list of things I do that help that aren’t supplement related.

Acupressure (EFT)
Brain training
Myofascial massage
Diet changes
Mindfullness
Ritalin (randomly helpful which is frustrating)

 

[Strawberry]

Wow that’s quite the list! Maybe I need to read around here more. You seem similar to me with the spine injury. I still need to research that Avenue...

 

[xebex]

Wow that’s quite the list! Maybe I need to read around here more. You seem similar to me with the spine injury. I still need to research that Avenue...

The spine thing is a minefield, being in Canada theres no help or treatment anyway. I’ve used myafascial massage and brain training to reduce the amount the muscles spasm around the injury site, in much more comfortable now but still can’t stand up for long. There are some good CCI groups on Facebook if you’re interested...

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

And just to make myself as unpopular as possible:

THERE'S NO SUCH THING, REALLY, AS UN-DENATURED WHEY .....

UNDENATURED PROTEIN is made from whole milk, therefore masquerades as 'undenatured', while undergoing the same heat or chemical severing of amino bonds, rending them all 'free' ..... as in free glutamic acid, a real carnival ride if you're sensitive to glutamate ...

WHEY PROTEIN is, as the name implies, made from whey, a side product of cheese making, among other things, and highly nutritive. It also goes thru a heat or chemical process to sever the amino bonds, and is a rich source of free-glutamic acid ....

 

[alex3619]

@alex3619 very interesting story. So you haven’t tried whey since 2001?

No. I got the same sensation from a blood thinner when I was in hospital though.

 

[alex3619]

UNDENATURED PROTEIN is made from whole milk, therefore masquerades as 'undenatured', while undergoing the same heat or chemical severing of amino bonds, rending them all 'free' ..... as in free glutamic acid, a real carnival ride if you're sensitive to glutamate ...

I investigated this a long time ago, and even had several long conversations with one of the researchers in Canada, circa 2009 or so. This is not pasteurized, its not heat treated at all. They use some kind of molecular distillation or filter.

This was discovered by accident when pasteurization temperatures were increased due to a bacterial outbreak, and suddenly the whey protein feed for rats in a study of glutathione saw their glutathione levels crash. The researcher investigated. I think this was in Canada.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

This is not pasteurized, its not heat treated at all.

Unpasteurized milk products can't be sold in the US without very special, very rare, licensing.

This is not pasteurized, its not heat treated at all. They use some kind of molecular distillation or filter.

It doesnt matter whether they use heat, acids, or 'molecular distillation', the end product is the same: a 'purified' protein. Purification consists of a series of steps designed to isolate some or all proteins ... whether by molecular distillation, electrophoresis or ion exchange, all produce the same end product: a, by definition, denatured milk-sourced protein substance, in which the amino bonds have been severed, thus rendering an absolute army of free-aminos, including the more potentially difficult and frequently damaging free glutamic acid.

'Molecular distillation' is simply a more advanced form of heat treatment, which can produce the same effect that used to take from 45 minutes to several hours, and which, with 'molecular distillation' only takes 45 seconds, at the same temp as the longer process, and throwing in several micron-sized filters for good measure. Think of how a micrwave can heat a solid in a minute or less that would take 15 or 20 miutes the old-fashioned way. The final product is the same, a well-heated solid, and the only difference is the path it took to get there.

But I repeat, the end product is still the same, with the possible advantage that heavy metal concentrations and other toxins like PCBs may have been reduced to " .... below detectable limits for human consumption....".
But how those levels are determined, defined, and tested remains a closely held, proprietary, secret, so there's no real certainty about that, either.

The amount of chicanery and magical thinking that many manufacturers of currently popular products use to sell their wares really pisses me off, so if you sense that in this response, it's not aimed at you, it's aimed at people willing to take advantage of the very vulnerable and very desperate, with hugely overhyped, often misrepresented, almost always over-priced products.

Caveat emptor, and I'll just see myself out now ....

EDTED for clarity .....

 

[alex3619]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6211803/

Just one of many papers on Immunocal, which has its own cold temperature patented process, and works a lot like NAC in boosting glutathione levels. I picked this one as its available full text, and rodents can be sacrificed to give better data . . . you cannot do that in human studies. There are many other studies. Recent studies have emphasized highly bioavailable cysteine.

Question - is a ban on unpasteurized milk products in the USA also applicable to therapeutic goods? I doubt it.

Australia has a similar ban, indeed on all imported milk products, yet because of special licence we have distributors who sell it, or did when I was using it. I almost applied for a licence myself, but decided it was too much hassle.

In Australia the ban on unpasteurised milk applies to food products, not therapeutic goods.

In the USA how do we know the ban is being enforced, if the laws are applicable to therapeutic goods, and that products like Immunocal do not have exemptions?

Not all whey protein is the same. So far as I am aware only Immunocal has its own patented methods for isolating whey protein. There might be others but I have not investigated.

I am unsure about the providence of other whey protein isolates. Most commercial whey protein is heat treated. Some may be good, but caveat emptor, let the buyer beware.

 

[Strawberry]

That article was fascinating in the brain injury sense. Makes it sound like soldiers need to be drinking immunocal daily .... or drinking raw milk.....

I found a comment on Amazon (for a different product) that says this about heat pasteurization

It is not raw as stated, it is pasteurized. From their website: "Raw Organic WheyTM is processed via a single flash pasteurization method at low heat and is cold processed. This method has been proven to keep the non-denatured integrity of the whey.* The raw milk is heated to 71.7°C (161°F) for 15 seconds."

So I am wondering if 71.7C or 161F is their definition of raw?

Just one of many papers on Immunocal, which has its own cold temperature patented process, and works a lot like NAC in boosting glutathione levels. ********* Recent studies have emphasized highly bioavailable cysteine.

Deleted for brevity and clarity of my question. Should I instead be taking NAC or cysteine?

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Some may be good, but caveat emptor, let the buyer beware.

Yes. As I said above:

Caveat emptor, and I'll just see myself out now ....

 

[alex3619]

Deleted for brevity and clarity of my question. Should I instead be taking NAC or cysteine?

Maybe NAC, not cysteine due to it being comparatively ineffective. It might be cost effective though, I have not examined this. NAC supplies cysteine a lot more effectively though, and is used therapeutically, especially for paracetamol poisoning, though also brain injury and I think some were trying it on Covid.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Hi @alex3619 .... Due to my incredibly annoying and fractious computer problems right now, I cant seem to do the usual form of quotes, so I've done copy and paste of your comments instead .... apologies ...

This response is in the spirit I already mentioned, and that you seconded, of CAVEAT EMPTOR

I was only able to access the NIH paper you posted a link to once before the link was somehow lost (am having some really infuriating computer problems the last 2 days), but I noted that the list of authors was very long and very broad, and that a lot of the authors, possibly most, were neither Drs nor scientists, but were simply affiliated with the Univ of Denver or another independent retail–oriented ‘healthy living’ source, in unidentified capacities.

When I tried to access the ‘Disclaimers’ addendum, that information wouldn’t open, and was therefore unavailable, so I have no idea how many of the paper’s authors might be affiliated with IMMUNOTEC, the manufacturers and primary sellers of IMMUNOCAL.

I’m sure you know that research papers are often funded by interested parties, which can skew the findings, and they even find their way into even the NIH files, which prides itself on having an open forum that extends even to homeopathy, supplements, and alternative treatment modalities.

The introduction to the research stated that they were working on an hypothesis regarding the value of glutathione and cysteine, along with other nutrients I can’t recall right now, for TBI, using specially raised lab mice, not unusual, but also with results not always translatable to human subjects.


BUT WAIT !!! THERE’S MORE …..

As of about 6 months ago, IMMUNOTEC was a MLM organization, with Byzantine and impenetrably complex systems of compensation for its various sales ‘consultants’ levels, which could explain why a one month supply of IMMUNOCAL, 30 premeasured sachets of what is essentially a whey protein isolate, costs between 79.99 and 96 dollars US, and that’s without the various upgrades or boosters recommended by the manufacturer for optimum results.

The following is taken directly from IMMUNOTEC’s own marketing materials:

"Why "The Science of"?
Immunotec’s 24-year history is rooted in real, proven, ground-breaking science. That distinguished heritage and expertise has resulted in a product line and network marketing opportunity that we are exceptionally proud to offer to our Consultants."


ALEX 3619
"Not all whey protein is the same. So far as I am aware only Immunocal has its own patented methods for isolating whey protein."

It’s been my experience that companies wanting to establish a successful presence in any market segment put a lot of effort into carving out a dominant market share for their products, usually with claims of special, secret, superior proprietary manufacturing techniques that make its product the absolute best on the market. I’d like to think IMMUNOCAL is different, but I’m not convinced, nor do I need to be. If it works for you, that’s all that matters.


ALEX 3619
"In Australia the ban on unpasteurised milk applies to food products, not therapeutic goods."

IMMUNOCAL is marketed as a nutritional food product with purported therapeutic benefits, but a MLM food product nonetheless, and is essentially a whey protein isolate.


ALEX 3619
"Question - is a ban on unpasteurized milk products in the USA also applicable to therapeutic goods? I doubt it."
Anything can be called a ‘therapeutic good’, including latex resistance exercise bands and plant fertilizer.

So yes, I believe the laws do extend to ‘therapeutic uses’ (thin k of the battle medicinal marijuana has fought), along with its use as a nutritional food supplement.

ALEX 3619
"In the USA how do we know the ban is being enforced, if the laws are applicable to therapeutic goods, and that products like Immunocal do not have exemptions?"

You’re assuming that the laws in the US are different for ‘therapeutic goods’. As far as I can determine, they’re not.

In the USA, per Federal law, raw, unpasteurized milk cannot be sold or shipped interstate. States can, and many do, allow the limited use, within that state only and subject to state health controls, of unpasteurized milk products. If you own a cow and want to sell its milk to your neighbor, you can. If you want to drink it yourself, rock on. But if you ship it interstate to a company intending to use it in producing a product that it will sell nation- or world-wide, you’re breaking the law.

Raw milk can contain a range of potentially deadly bacteria, including Listeria, Brucella, E. coli, Salmonella, Campylobacter, and Cryptosporidium, which is why it’s so tightly controlled.


HERE’S SOME MORE INFORMATION ON 'IMMUNOTEC', THE MANUFACTURERS AND PURVEYORS OF IMMUNOCAL, TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM THEIR OWN MARKETING MATERIALS:

Why "The Science of"?
Immunotec’s 24-year history is rooted in real, proven,
ground-breaking science. That distinguished heritage and
expertise has resulted in a product line and network
marketing opportunity that we are exceptionally proud
to offer to our Consultants.

Our Mission
To provide high-quality, scientifically-based nutrition
and wellness products which enhance quality of life and
performance….

Why "Living Better"?
The quality and effectiveness of our product line and
the potential embodied in our business opportunity
combine to make us a company which can truly say that,
in so many ways, we help people live better.

It’s clear that you seem to be impressed with IMMUNOCAL, which means that either it’s doing something for you that’s worth it’s hefty price tag, or you expect that it will do that, and I’m a firm believer in my own axiom: IF IT WORKS FOR YOU, EVERYTHING ELSE IS JUST FOOTNOTES.

So, once again, caveat emptor, and I'll see myself out now ….