Twitter thread re nattokinase survey for persons with ME/CFS and LC, by LongCovidPharmaD (Pw/ME)

Mary

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This is quite interesting - it's a twitter thread by a pharmacist who has ME, and is posting about nattokinase survey - tbh, I can't tell who performed the survey but and there's not a lot of info about it anyways, but I think it's still quite interesting - it might be that that the NK helps with microclots. So I'm going to try to post the tweets here (I have a rough time posting them properly!)

(5) LongCovidPharmD on Twitter: "💊NATTOKINASE Survey Data💊 Interesting results! Efficacy appears to ⬆️ w total daily dose (TDD). While 2000-4000 FU TDD looks similar, efficacy appears to improve around ≥6000 FU TDD w/ most taking ≥4000 FU twice daily. Note no one reported feeling worse at ≥9000 FU TDD.🧵 https://t.co/SMpePaGffZ" / Twitter

(5) LongCovidPharmD on Twitter: "Q: Does ACID RESISTANT COATING affect efficacy? I believe yes, but there is a possible confounding factor: 28 out of 36 respondents who took NK w/ enteric or acid resistant coatings were taking COMBOS with SP and a few with additional ingredients. However... 👇" / Twitter

(5) LongCovidPharmD on Twitter: "Charts shows Overall improvement on scale of 0 (no benefit) to 10 (full recovery): 77% reported some level of improvement.👍 👇 https://t.co/bOVmBv8NhR" / Twitter

(5) LongCovidPharmD on Twitter: "Many of the other respondents in the "no coating" category were ALSO taking SP (separately), so I do not believe it to be a large confounder. The results are quite stark: No coating (n=132) vs coating (n=36): 52% vs 83% felt better; 9.8% vs 0% felt worse👇 https://t.co/fRPFWmLA63" / Twitter

(5) LongCovidPharmD on Twitter: "Charts shows Overall improvement on scale of 0 (no benefit) to 10 (full recovery): 77% reported some level of improvement.👍 👇 https://t.co/bOVmBv8NhR" / Twitter

(5) LongCovidPharmD on Twitter: "The acid resistant & enteric coated brands used were: Dr's Best SP + NK (n=17) Solaray (n=9) Neprinol (n=4) RedFood (n=4) Naturally Vitamin (n=2) See graphs comparing Dr's Best NK (no acid resistance) vs Dr's Best NK/SP (acid resistance +SP), two of the most popular brands👇" / Twitter

(5) LongCovidPharmD on Twitter: "Dr's Best Natto-Serra appears superior to NK alone. It's unclear if this is due to the serrapeptase, the acid-resistant coating, or both. Dr's Best Natto-Serra vs other acid-resistant brands yielded somewhat similar efficacy, but the sample size is quite small (n=19 vs n=17). 👇 https://t.co/tmpbXRLog7" / Twitter

(5) LongCovidPharmD on Twitter: "Out of the brands with no acid-resistance, sample size is low so take w/ grain of salt: A shout-out to "Best Naturals" NK which performed particularly well. NOW performed the worst. Brands with n≥9 shown below in chart.👇 https://t.co/4IEkthhZo9" / Twitter
 
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I think this is self reported data from folks who tried to take the enzymes....not from a random study...

There is alot of info on using these enzymes in Dr. Aguirre-Chang's posts here on PR (dosages)
 

Mary

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I think this is self reported data from folks who tried to take the enzymes....not from a random study...

There is alot of info on using these enzymes in Dr. Aguirre-Chang's posts here on PR (dosages)
I agree, I think it's self-reported data, only I don't know who the data was reported to - who collected and collated the data, whether it was something LongCovidPharmaD did or someone else.

Thanks for the tip about Dr. Aguirre-Chang's posts - I'll take a look! :thumbsup:
 
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I will need to take more than one nattokinase (2000 iu) every, oh three weeks.

I've been dabbling with it...but since I think it causes me to detox, I put off a large increase in the dosage.necessary to have a meaningful result.

it really helps my lungs....
 

Mary

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@Rufous McKinney - I used to detox at the drop of a hat, for many years. It's been several years now since it happened, but it seemed to occur several times a month, I'd react to something with a detox reaction. Apple cider vinegar and cayenne made me detox - anything that had "cleansing" properties of any type. After I started taking glycine and inositol and glutamine, over a period of 6 months, my detox reactions stopped. I think they got my detox pathways working properly.

I had to start with a very small dose of glycine because I reacted so strongly to it with a severe detox reaction but muscle testing indicated it was good for me, in very small doses, which I was able to gradually increase over the 6 months, such that i no longer react to it at all. It's part of Phase II liver detoxification. Maybe it would help you?
 

Violeta

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Nattokinase is from natto, and natto also contains a good amount of Vitamin K2.

If nattokinase breaks down fibrin, and there is calcium in that fibrin that is being broken down, I am thinking it would be good to take Vitamin K2 with your nattokinase.

I don't know if calcium is involved in microclots.

Side note: " Our results showed that Ca is of importance for formation of the fibrin gel structure"
 

Methyl90

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Nattokinase is from natto, and natto also contains a good amount of Vitamin K2.

If nattokinase breaks down fibrin, and there is calcium in that fibrin that is being broken down, I am thinking it would be good to take Vitamin K2 with your nattokinase.

I don't know if calcium is involved in microclots.

Side note: " Our results showed that Ca is of importance for formation of the fibrin gel structure"
How would calcium be beneficial if fibrosis formation increases? limiting dietary calcium is a good idea if Vitamin D is in an adequate range? sorry maybe I misinterpreted your message.

K2 MK7 is also involved with osteocalcin ... the only way I can tolerate it is topically with suitable carriers or when I wash my hair with extra virgin olive oil, I also put D.

Thank you
 

Methyl90

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@Rufous McKinney - I used to detox at the drop of a hat, for many years. It's been several years now since it happened, but it seemed to occur several times a month, I'd react to something with a detox reaction. Apple cider vinegar and cayenne made me detox - anything that had "cleansing" properties of any type. After I started taking glycine and inositol and glutamine, over a period of 6 months, my detox reactions stopped. I think they got my detox pathways working properly.

I had to start with a very small dose of glycine because I reacted so strongly to it with a severe detox reaction but muscle testing indicated it was good for me, in very small doses, which I was able to gradually increase over the 6 months, such that i no longer react to it at all. It's part of Phase II liver detoxification. Maybe it would help you?
how do you know it's detox reaction ?
 

Carl

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Rutin is meant to be very helpful in preventing clotting problems. There are many articles on it relating to clotting reactions.

Inflammation tends to promote clotting as it also does in COVID-19. That might be why CFS sufferers are prone to clotting.

However my blood clotting has always been quite slow so something that I take must be affecting it in a beneficial way. Lots of Omega 3 approx 30ml/day and Rutin among other things.
 

Violeta

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How would calcium be beneficial if fibrosis formation increases? limiting dietary calcium is a good idea if Vitamin D is in an adequate range? sorry maybe I misinterpreted your message.

K2 MK7 is also involved with osteocalcin ... the only way I can tolerate it is topically with suitable carriers or when I wash my hair with extra virgin olive oil, I also put D.

Thank you
I would have to look more at fibrin formation to know how calcium is involved. I think when they used the word "beneficial", it was an unfortunate choice because it makes it appear that the fibrin is a good thing, but it isn't.

What I meant was that when the nattokinase is breaking down fibrin, it will set free calcium that was caught up in the fibrin. The calcium was helping to make fibrin form, so not a good thing. So you want to catch that calcium with K2 and put it somewhere that it belongs.

So natto, which has the nattokinase and K2 does it best, but who can stand the taste of natto.

This takes my thoughts to Mast cell degranulation, but I have to organize my thoughts on that before saying any more about that tangent.
 

Mary

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how do you know it's detox reaction ?
From experience. Many years before then at one time I was feeling sick and fluish, digestion was way off, extra tired and my chiro who did muscle testing told me my liver was overloaded with toxins. This was new to me, I knew nothing about it at that time. I ended up doing a liver detox under his supervision - part of the problem was from chemical solvents I'd had heavy exposure to at a job many years before. Anyways, after the 30-day detox my digestion and everything was much better, I had to start taking betaine with HCL, and also added in milk thistle. So that was my first experience with detoxing.

I continued to have detox reactions to many things for several years, and I could usually connect it to something I'd taken - e.g., apple cider vinegar, a product that had cayenne in it - anything that had "cleansing" type properties caused a detox reaction - I'd feel sick, fluish, etc. So with the glycine, it was the same, only my reaction was extreme with the glycine - I got very spacey, got lost going to my sister's house, very tired, etc. But muscle testing indicated it was actually good for me and as I said above, I continued to take it but in very small doses and gradually was able to increase it over a period of 6 months, and I no longer have these random detox reactions. It's been several years since I've reacted to anything, and it used to happen several times a month.
 

Methyl90

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I would have to look more at fibrin formation to know how calcium is involved. I think when they used the word "beneficial", it was an unfortunate choice because it makes it appear that the fibrin is a good thing, but it isn't.

What I meant was that when the nattokinase is breaking down fibrin, it will set free calcium that was caught up in the fibrin. The calcium was helping to make fibrin form, so not a good thing. So you want to catch that calcium with K2 and put it somewhere that it belongs.

So natto, which has the nattokinase and K2 does it best, but who can stand the taste of natto.

This takes my thoughts to Mast cell degranulation, but I have to organize my thoughts on that before saying any more about that tangent.
This reminds me of when I hear people say "take vitamin C which helps you with collagen" but collagen is a precursor of fibrin so instead of helping connective tissue it makes the situation worse by creating scar tissue .. .do you agree? natto is basically an antifibrotic, and fibrosis is not only in the connective tissue but in many other organs / tissues.
 
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how do you know it's detox reaction ?
in my case, I tend to notice metal on my tongue after I take one. I assume that's metal I need to get rid of.
Also feel even worse flu-like, and brain not functioning. I get a similar reaction to taking lymph cleanse herbs.."very mild"..after about three days, I usually can't handle it any longer and stop.

Also, when I took extremely hot epsom salt baths every four hours for 2-3 days (I was very very sick)...I had a serious dump of metals during that process.

Sharing that after I got rid of two metal crowns, my left jaw seems no longer irritated and often inflaming. That was nice!
 

godlovesatrier

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It's self reported by twitter users. She's done about 20 surveys now inc into tollovid and vedicinals 9 among other things. Nattokinase seemed to come out top along with lumbroniskase.

Funnily enough Stephen Buhner the famed herbalist was advising to take these and advising the brands that worked best (in her surveys of patients) at the start of 2020 :rofl: (https://www.stephenharrodbuhner.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/coronavirus-1.pdf)

However, I think the daily use of specific anticlotting agents is warranted – whether someone is infected or not. I suggest either lumbrokinase or nattokinase (and yes, serrapeptase will work, too).
I'm allergic to lumbroniskase, but natto is fine. It breks down fibrin in case anyone is wondering and we know the spike protein generates fibrin there's no doubt about that.

Also Professor David Bell has been watching the studies closely and he's been involved in quite a few of the teamclots studies to my knowledge.