Tryptophan low or high?

judyinthesky

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Hello,

Have you measured this?

I've read in MEpedia:

"By mediating tryptophan catabolism, the enzyme indoleamine-2,3-dioxygenase (IDO) has a complex role in immunoregulation in infection and autoimmunity.[4] The ME/CFS Severely Ill, Big Data Study of found IDO genes defects in most of the small group with severe ME that was studied, which may prevent people with ME/CFS from metabolising tryptophan, leading to increased levels in patients.[5]
Dr. Ron Davis, speaking about tryptophan being available on the market, has made it clear that self experimentation can be very dangerous.[5]"

However, my tryptophan seems to be low and not higher.

So higher = problems with metabolism and dangerous to experiment, low = something else and can try to take tryptophan?

Anyone similar measurements?

I know there's lots of threads but I'm very severe to forgive that I can't search them.

Anyone else with low tryptophan or higher that has tried to take it?
 

JES

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The gene that Davis found when dysfunctional would lead to increased intracellular tryptophan levels, and what's more, apparently only in certain types of cells that express this particular gene.

In other words, blood or serum measurement of tryptophan would most likely not correlate at all with the levels found in cells. Actually, Davis has still not found a reliable way to measure it and if it turns out those IDO2 expressing cells are only found for example in the CNS or brain, that makes it even more difficult to measure.

I noticed that over the years, I seems to react more negatively towards tryptophan supplementation than before, but I never experienced any permanent worsening or fall of cliff. If Davis hypothesis of dysfunctional IDO2 and metabolic trap was true, then it would be a very bad idea indeed, but it's still very much speculative to me. There may be other things wrong with tryptophan metabolism which could make an ME/CFS patient feel better or worse with tryptophan.

There is an alternative form of tryptophan called 5-HTP, which bypasses some of the conversion steps and could be an option. Then there is also vitamin B6 and the more active form P-5-P, which act as co-factors in conversion from tryptophan to serotonin. So if you are short of tryptophan, that could be a safer route.
 

LINE

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I used to take tryptophan back in the day (pre bad CFS) and it did wonders for me. Mood and sleep improved. I eventually stopped it but decided to try it again (under bad CFS). I never had such a miserable experience. It mostly damaged my gut and had to stop it.

As I have learned, treatments are very individual based, you really just don't know how someone is going to react to a given substance with the exception of experience.

Other lesson learned is that nutrients are usually tied to each other, it is better to get the full complement of vitamins, minerals, aminos, good fats. In other words, supplementing with just isolated nutrients usually does not work but I am sure there are exceptions.
 

Wishful

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As LINE says, you need to experiment to see whether any supplement is beneficial, detrimental, or ineffectual for you. Theories apply to a theoretical body, not a real one. Your body might maintain a level of a nutrient that differs from 'average', but all that means is that you're not average. It says nothing about whether you should try to change it.

Tryptophan made my ME symptoms much worse. A low-TRP diet avoided that extra severity, but had no other noticeable effect.

There's also no need to use commercial TRP capsules/tablets. Just eat some chicken or other food rich in TRP, and see if that has a noticeable effect. If there is an effect, you could try several different foods to try to determine if it's the TRP content or something else.
 

judyinthesky

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I used to take tryptophan back in the day (pre bad CFS) and it did wonders for me. Mood and sleep improved. I eventually stopped it but decided to try it again (under bad CFS). I never had such a miserable experience. It mostly damaged my gut and had to stop it.

As I have learned, treatments are very individual based, you really just don't know how someone is going to react to a given substance with the exception of experience.

Other lesson learned is that nutrients are usually tied to each other, it is better to get the full complement of vitamins, minerals, aminos, good fats. In other words, supplementing with just isolated nutrients usually does not work but I am sure there are exceptions.
Hard because I have severe pancreas insufficiency. Supplementing anyways, but there might always be something missing.
 

judyinthesky

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The gene that Davis found when dysfunctional would lead to increased intracellular tryptophan levels, and what's more, apparently only in certain types of cells that express this particular gene.

In other words, blood or serum measurement of tryptophan would most likely not correlate at all with the levels found in cells. Actually, Davis has still not found a reliable way to measure it and if it turns out those IDO2 expressing cells are only found for example in the CNS or brain, that makes it even more difficult to measure.

I noticed that over the years, I seems to react more negatively towards tryptophan supplementation than before, but I never experienced any permanent worsening or fall of cliff. If Davis hypothesis of dysfunctional IDO2 and metabolic trap was true, then it would be a very bad idea indeed, but it's still very much speculative to me. There may be other things wrong with tryptophan metabolism which could make an ME/CFS patient feel better or worse with tryptophan.

There is an alternative form of tryptophan called 5-HTP, which bypasses some of the conversion steps and could be an option. Then there is also vitamin B6 and the more active form P-5-P, which act as co-factors in conversion from tryptophan to serotonin. So if you are short of tryptophan, that could be a safer route.
I've tried everything apart from P-5-P, have also on the lower end serotonin, but do very bad on different types of antidepressants.

Thank you this was informative
 

judyinthesky

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As LINE says, you need to experiment to see whether any supplement is beneficial, detrimental, or ineffectual for you. Theories apply to a theoretical body, not a real one. Your body might maintain a level of a nutrient that differs from 'average', but all that means is that you're not average. It says nothing about whether you should try to change it.

Tryptophan made my ME symptoms much worse. A low-TRP diet avoided that extra severity, but had no other noticeable effect.

There's also no need to use commercial TRP capsules/tablets. Just eat some chicken or other food rich in TRP, and see if that has a noticeable effect. If there is an effect, you could try several different foods to try to determine if it's the TRP content or something else.
It's not so easy with the severe pancreas insufficiency. It started my extreme health issue though.

I'm experimenting since a long time now with nutrients. The reason I was asking this question because it is something left that I have not yet experimented with. The other goes without saying anyways.

It's hard to go with natural foods because eating makes all my symptoms worse and I'm very severe.
 

LINE

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judyinthesky

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Did a doctor do a workup on the pancreatic insufficiency?

Blood sugar ok?

Did you have your pancreatic enzymes checked, perhaps you are deficient. EPI they call it. Try any pancreatic enzymes as a supplement?

I have done pancreas glandulars which will help modulate my blood sugar. This product has pancreas along with adrenal, spleen and thymus

. Amazon.com: NutriCology ImmoPlex Glandulars - Adrenal, Pancreas, Thymus, Spleen - 60 Vegicaps : Health & Household
Yes two doctors did plus I've done three different pancreas imaging tests and the elastase test 5 times. It's always super low for severe pancreas insufficiency.
I'm on masses of Kreon since years. Takes away stomach pain but never sorts my diarrhea and gut. I've worked over the last years with a very good gastro doctor even an expert in MCAS and she also has exhausted all options. Sometimes you really tried it all ;))

Blood sugar is always fine, my pancreas illness is idiopathic.
 

judyinthesky

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The gene that Davis found when dysfunctional would lead to increased intracellular tryptophan levels, and what's more, apparently only in certain types of cells that express this particular gene.

In other words, blood or serum measurement of tryptophan would most likely not correlate at all with the levels found in cells. Actually, Davis has still not found a reliable way to measure it and if it turns out those IDO2 expressing cells are only found for example in the CNS or brain, that makes it even more difficult to measure.

I noticed that over the years, I seems to react more negatively towards tryptophan supplementation than before, but I never experienced any permanent worsening or fall of cliff. If Davis hypothesis of dysfunctional IDO2 and metabolic trap was true, then it would be a very bad idea indeed, but it's still very much speculative to me. There may be other things wrong with tryptophan metabolism which could make an ME/CFS patient feel better or worse with tryptophan.

There is an alternative form of tryptophan called 5-HTP, which bypasses some of the conversion steps and could be an option. Then there is also vitamin B6 and the more active form P-5-P, which act as co-factors in conversion from tryptophan to serotonin. So if you are short of tryptophan, that could be a safer route.
However, to ask again, even if we can't measure this in serum, we wouldn't expect less of it?

Any opinions.
So far I've crashed after my first trial but I crash every third day anyways and can't avoid this with pacing because food makes me crash most