Truth about Adrenal Fatigue

heapsreal

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Still waiting for phosphoserine order, and using seriphos for muscle pain but I feel sleepy on it. Is there any way to get around this problem ? I have to take it during the day too, to stop my muscle pain.This is the best thing I have ever used for pain so far.
I only use it at night to help sleep not muscle pain. Do u do hormones like pregenolone etc could help raise cortisol during the day which can help inflammation and PS at night to lower cortisol and help sleep. Thats sort of what im doing.

cheers!!
 

SaraM

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I only use it at night to help sleep not muscle pain. Do u do hormones like pregenolone etc could help raise cortisol during the day which can help inflammation and PS at night to lower cortisol and help sleep. Thats sort of what im doing.

cheers!!
I take some Preg and Dhea, but not much because I get acne and thick facial hair.
 

Ema

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Still waiting for phosphatydilserine order, and using seriphos for muscle pain but I feel sleepy on it. Is there any way to get around this problem ? I have to take it during the day too, to stop my muscle pain.This is the best thing I have ever used for pain so far.
You might consider DPA - D-phenylalanine. It helps to potentiate endorphins which can help a LOT with pain relief. I take 3-4 500 mg capsules a day when my old injuries are acting up.
 

heapsreal

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Bumping this post up due to discussion on cortisol and cortisol resistance.

As the original article suggest, the para ventricular nucleus (PVN) seems to play a function in cortisol sensitivity. Phosphatidyleserine is said to help improve this cortisol sensitivity which seems to help those with high cortisol and those with high night time cortisol and having problems with sleep. Phosphatidyleserine does seem abit hit and miss with some as it can lower cortisol abit too much for some?
 

drob31

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I've read this article multiple times over the last 6 months and I've also seen other doctors who talk about the PVN.

The PVN doesn't just get confused though, it seems to get caught in a negative feedback loop or inhibited by excess cytokines. In my opinion something is causing this to happen, and it's not the PVN's fault. I think the root cause is infection or inflamation, or blood sugar issues.

The PVN's major affect on increasing or lowering cortisol could cause hypothyroidism. Lower cortisol, and there's not enough cortisol for the t3 to enter the cell. If the cortisols too high it could cause high conversion to rt3 or thyroid resistance.
 

heapsreal

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I've read this article multiple times over the last 6 months and I've also seen other doctors who talk about the PVN.

The PVN doesn't just get confused though, it seems to get caught in a negative feedback loop or inhibited by excess cytokines. In my opinion something is causing this to happen, and it's not the PVN's fault. I think the root cause is infection or inflamation, or blood sugar issues.

The PVN's major affect on increasing or lowering cortisol could cause hypothyroidism. Lower cortisol, and there's not enough cortisol for the t3 to enter the cell. If the cortisols too high it could cause high conversion to rt3 or thyroid resistance.

I think your right. With ME we mostly think of infections and immune system and forget that ME is also about inflammation of the brain and spinal cord.

Either the initial infection or ongoing infections which cause all the inflammation cause damage to the hypothalamus which gives us many of our neurological symptoms such as insomnia and many parasympathetic abnormalities causing symptoms like pots/oi etc.

I also wonder with research mentioning those post and pre 3 years with cfsme that those post 3 yrs may have more permanent damage and those less than 3 yrs have more reversible issues? ?

It seems that many of our hormones and neurotransmitters need to be controlled manual with meds etc. Everything seems to interact with each other also.

Can get a headache trying to understand it all? ?
 

adreno

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Whether ME/CFS is of infectious or autoimmune origin, the HPA is ultimately under the control of the immune system.

It is of course also possible that direct damage to the hypothalamus causes these problems.
 

Wayne

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the HPA is ultimately under the control of the immune system
I just ran across a 7 1/2 min. video entitled, "The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue (It's Not What You Think) which I thought was quite good. He gives a pretty good and succinct description of some of the variables associated with "adrenal fatigue".

In it he states the fatigue that many chalk up to adrenal fatigue is actually most often caused by an HPA dysfunction. He also describes that in addition to the immune system affecting the HPA, brain neurotransmitter levels and hormone levels also play critical roles in how it functions.
 

picante

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Time to revive this thread again, because it's so good. I haven't posted as much in the last year, due to the ill effects of crashing from the state of siege I described last Feb. I have yet to pop out of the vortex that swallowed me. My ND was worse than unhelpful, and finally in November I went to see an acupuncturist who ordered this saliva test for cortisol/DHEA. Note the ghastly ratio.
Picante Adrenal Stress Profile from BioHealth 2016 copy.jpg
 

heapsreal

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Time to revive this thread again, because it's so good. I haven't posted as much in the last year, due to the ill effects of crashing from the state of siege I described last Feb. I have yet to pop out of the vortex that swallowed me. My ND was worse than unhelpful, and finally in November I went to see an acupuncturist who ordered this saliva test for cortisol/DHEA. Note the ghastly ratio:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...s-profile-from-biohealth-2016-copy-jpg.19743/

Whats funny is mainstream medicine say adrenal fatigue is a list of symptoms and isnt real. Sounds abit like depression, they cant test serotonin levels and say you have depression. But drs treating adrenal fatigue do find abnormalities in cortisol and dhea testing so it can be tested. The only hiccup is that is it the adrenal glands themselves or the signals from the brain to the adrenal glands or combo of.

It seems it can be a single condition or can go along with another condition like cfsme.
 

drob31

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That's terrible. Have you tried anything like pregnenelone or even cortef, also dhea?
 

picante

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I just ran across a 7 1/2 min. video entitled, "The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue (It's Not What You Think) which I thought was quite good. He gives a pretty good and succinct description of some of the variables associated with "adrenal fatigue"
In this video Wayne linked, he talks about 3 categories of inputs to the hypothalamus: hormones, neurotransmitters, and cytokines.
The PVN doesn't just get confused though, it seems to get caught in a negative feedback loop or inhibited by excess cytokines.
Now let me add this: WHAT IF the cytokines are primarily in the meninges, spinal cord, and/or brain? This is the hypothesis I arrived at in the last year: My post-exertional neuro-exhaustion is a cytokine storm in my CNS: it has always manifested as excruciating neck spasms/headaches, and when I described this to the acupuncturist, she thought that had the potential to seriously mess with my HPA axis.
 

picante

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That's terrible. Have you tried anything like pregnenelone or even cortef, also dhea?
Before I even had time to do the test posted above, the Acu put me on something to help reduce the cytokine load: homeopathics by GUNA. One is called BDNF (brain-derived neurotrophic factor), the other is Interleukin-10, which is an anti-inflammatory cytokine that helps to control the inflammatory ones.

I was actually floored when she told me I could take cytokines. Then I was floored again when they started to reduce my neck pain. I was off them temporarily while I waited for an order from the UK (with current exchange rates, it was much cheaper than buying them in the US). The pain got worse again.

Then we got the OAT results, indicating low neurotransmitters (serotonin & dopamine). Then we got the cortisol/DHEA test back.

So yes, she has put me on DHEA (which I was already taking) and pregnenolone. It's very hard to get the balance to work. The DHEA makes me impossibly groggy during the day, and it blocks my cortisol too much at night. Mostly I've focused on slowly increasing the pregnenolone, and that helps. I overdid it last night, though, and finally the DHEA became useful as a counter-balance this morning.

She's also got me taking some pretty potent licorice root (Biomatrix). It's so concentrated, it's gooey, LOL.

This is the first progress I've seen since my crash last year.
 

Paralee

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I don't know if I'm right but my cortisol was just barely high when I had the Cipro reaction. In all fairness I will say that my sex hormones and thyroid were in the gutter....well, I was getting the thyroid better.

Is it possible a drug reaction can lower morning cortisol from 24 to 4.6? I just had a stim test and it came back "normal" so I may be stuck with a very sedentary rest of my life if I don't take the reins.

I had just had parathyroid surgery a few months before and the levels after the surgery were a lot better before the Cipro, too, perfect in fact. After that I'm borderline hypocalcemic.
 

picante

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I don't know if I'm right but my cortisol was just barely high when I had the Cipro reaction.
When was this reaction to Cipro? Have you had other problems from it? Have you done any reading on peopled who've been "floxxed"? It's a slang term for people who've had neurological impairments from any of the fluoroquinolone antibiotics. You may find other patients whose HPA signalling has been addled by one of these drugs, since fluorine is neurotoxic.

Last I heard, a bunch of patients attended a hearing on the side effects of these drugs, and testified about permanent debilitating neurological conditions they had acquired. That was Nov. 2015, and the FDA has added more black box warnings to the whole class of fluoroquinolones.