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Tolerable Antidepressants

Messages
76
Location
Sweden
Have any of you found a suitable antidepressant?

I seem to be sensitive to serotonin which complicates finding something that my body will tolerate. Last time I tried just 2,5 mg of Escitalopram which is super low, and within just 30 minutes I started to get really tense, cramping, twitching and feeling really awful. I stopped immediately. Supplements are not enough. I tried so many. Vitamins, b12, GABA, NAG, Taurine, Theanine, niacinamide, Inositol, Lithium orotate, Magnesium, Zinc, 5htp, glutamine, bcaa.

I heard that ADs that act on dopamine will instead be to stimulating and bad for anxiety hmm :meh:
 
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boolybooly

Senior Member
Messages
161
Location
Northants UK
According to Dr Paul Cheney it is a really bad idea to give someone with ME an SSRI because the problem tends to be neurological overactivity causing dysfunction and not simple sluggishness. Taking an SSRI makes that worse, the trick is to calm the mind and soothe the nervous system. In theory tricyclics like amitriptyline are not like that and it is often prescribed for ME, but I found it disturbed my heart rhythm so I stopped using it.

Cheney recommends magnesium and taurine as supplements to help with nerve balance. But its not safe to supplement magnesium without calcium over the long term.

Personally I also take Kirkman B complex and zinc because this facillitates removal of stimulating amines from the blood which result from some foods, this helps calm my nerves and I drink hop and marigold tea because hops are a mild tranquiliser and marigold allegedly supports the immune system. It is bitter like beer but not alcoholic.

I aim for peace and tranquility because this is better for me and I get tired out and febrile very easily.
 
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Messages
76
Location
Sweden
According to Dr Paul Cheney it is a really bad idea to give someone with ME an SSRI because the problem tends to be neurological overactivity causing dysfunction and not simple sluggishness. Taking an SSRI makes that worse, the trick is to calm the mind and soothe the nervous system. In theory tricyclics like amitriptyline are not like that and it is often prescribed for ME, but I found it disturbed my heart rhythm so I stopped using it.

Cheney recommends magnesium and taurine as supplements to help with nerve balance. But its not safe to supplement magnesium without calcium over the long term.

Personally I also take Kirkman B complex and zinc because this facillitates removal of stimulating amines from the blood which result from some foods, this helps calm my nerves and I drink hop and marigold tea because hops are a mild tranquiliser and marigold allegedly supports the immune system. It is bitter like beer but not alcoholic.

I aim for peace and tranquility because this is better for me and I get tired out and febrile very easily.

I take magnesium, zinc and other supplements but need something more. I also meditate which helps a lot. But I an diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Syndrome and OCD which I had before ME.

So are TCA better than SSRIs for many ME patients?
 

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
@Alexandra90 Mood issues are often indicative of a nutrient need. Generally speaking SSRI anti-depressant drugs do not supply the missing nutrient, but prevent quick breakdown of certain nutrients.

It might be a whole lot better to find out what may be commonly missing in the diet nutrient wise, or if co-factors for particular nutrients are missing, or if one is suffering from nutrient depletion due to drugs, exercise, illness or the like.

At any rate no one is suffering from a deficiency of drugs... drugs usually complicate the picture and create more problems.

Not surprisingly you will find a good amount of discussion in these threads about what has been an effective and safe mood booster.

Here is just one excerpt among the many:
...Julia Ross published a book on using amino acids for mood as certain amino acids are precursors to certain neurotransmitters and thus affect neurotransmitter deficiency. She posted a questionnaire which can help you figure out which amino acids might affect you. It certainly gives you a clue as too how your system is operating. See: http://moodcure.com/take_the_mood_type_questionnaire.html This article may also be of interest: https://nootriment.com/l-tyrosine-for-anxiety/ ...
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-improvement-from-tyrosine.54660/#post-913522

What works for others may not work for you due to different biochemistry or body needs at the time. What works at one time may not work at another as needs change.

Be aware that many have tried anti-depressant drugs with little to no help, but suffered from significant side effects. Further when they tried to discontinue use of these drugs they found it extremely difficult to do so, consequences are severe. That's a major money making enterprise for big pharma... make us all addicts.

The fraud committed in the anti-depressant market is legendary...
For starters see:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0063509

Department of Justice

Office of Public Affairs

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Monday, July 2, 2012

GlaxoSmithKline to Plead Guilty and Pay $3 Billion to Resolve Fraud Allegations and Failure to Report Safety Data

Global health care giant GlaxoSmithKline LLC (GSK) agreed to plead guilty and to pay $3 billion to resolve its criminal and civil liability arising from the company’s unlawful promotion of certain prescription drugs, its failure to report certain safety data, and its civil liability for alleged false price reporting practices, the Justice Department announced today. The resolution is the largest health care fraud settlement in U.S. history and the largest payment ever by a drug company.

GSK agreed to plead guilty to a three-count criminal information, including two counts of introducing misbranded drugs, Paxil and Wellbutrin, into interstate commerce and one count of failing to report safety data about the drug Avandia to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Under the terms of the plea agreement, GSK will pay a total of $1 billion, including a criminal fine of $956,814,400 and forfeiture in the amount of $43,185,600. The criminal plea agreement also includes certain non-monetary compliance commitments and certifications by GSK’s U.S. president and board of directors. GSK’s guilty plea and sentence is not final until accepted by the U.S. District Court.

GSK will also pay $2 billion to resolve its civil liabilities with the federal government under the False Claims Act, as well as the states. The civil settlement resolves claims relating to Paxil, Wellbutrin and Avandia, as well as additional drugs, and also resolves pricing fraud allegations.

“Today’s multi-billion dollar settlement is unprecedented in both size and scope. It underscores the Administration’s firm commitment to protecting the American people and holding accountable those who commit health care fraud,” said James M. Cole, Deputy Attorney General. “At every level, we are determined to stop practices that jeopardize patients’ health, harm taxpayers, and violate the public trust – and this historic action is a clear warning to any company that chooses to break the law.”

“Today’s historic settlement is a major milestone in our efforts to stamp out health care fraud,” said Bill Corr, Deputy Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). “For a long time, our health care system had been a target for cheaters who thought they could make an easy profit at the expense of public safety, taxpayers, and the millions of Americans who depend on programs like Medicare and Medicaid. But thanks to strong enforcement actions like those we have announced today, that equation is rapidly changing.”

This resolution marks the culmination of an extensive investigation by special agents from HHS-OIG, FDA and FBI, along with law enforcement partners across the federal government. Moving forward, GSK will be subject to stringent requirements under its corporate integrity agreement with HHS-OIG; this agreement is designed to increase accountability and transparency and prevent future fraud and abuse. Effective law enforcement partnerships and fraud prevention are hallmarks of the Health Care Fraud Prevention and Enforcement Action Team (HEAT) initiative, which fosters government collaboration to fight fraud.

Criminal Plea Agreement

Under the provisions of the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act, a company in its application to the FDA must specify each intended use of a drug. After the FDA approves the product as safe and effective for a specified use, a company’s promotional activities must be limited to the intended uses that FDA approved. In fact, promotion by the manufacturer for other uses – known as “off-label uses” – renders the product “misbranded.”

For rest of article: see https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/glax...-resolve-fraud-allegations-and-failure-report[/QUOTE]
 
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Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,293
Location
Southern California
Taurine is very calming - I've started taking it the last couple of nights and am sleeping much better.

You also might try niacin or niacinamide - they both act to enhance GABA receptors, and l-theanine helps the brain produce GABA.
 

boolybooly

Senior Member
Messages
161
Location
Northants UK
Forgot to mention that when I feel down I will sometimes benefit from B12 methylcobalamine and vitamin D.

I find meditation helpful too.

TCAs in particular amitriptyline is received wisdom for ME in the UK and I have found the mainstream NHS doctors recognise this but I am not sure this is a recommendation. Typically it is prescribed in small doses like 10mg as this is all that is needed to reduce neurological overactivity and promote a better sense of wellbeing.

I have to confess to a slight distrust of TCAs myself as I used to volunteer at a MIND charity center in the UK before diagnosis and one of the biggest problems was AD dependancy and addiction; the MIND position was that they are overprescribed and that social interventions are the kind of humanity we should be trying to achieve. Personally I feel overprescription may be more to do with pharmaceutical company economics than medical efficacy.

But from experience I can say that amitriptyline does help to reduce anxiety and mental overactivity in quite small doses. Though it was most useful when I was first diagnosed and getting over the trauma of the transition, on top of 10 years undiagnosed, so an aid in transition and adjustment. I would prefer not to take something like that over the long term myself.
 
Messages
76
Location
Sweden
I appreciate all suggestions but as I Said in TS supplements are not enough

I tried so many. Vitamins, b12, GABA, NAG, Taurine, Theanine, niacinamide, Inositol, Lithium orotate, Magnesium, Zinc, 5htp, Glutamine, BCAA. I take some of them and melatonin but I have GAD and need something more to function and handle My GAD and recovery from ME :)
 
Messages
76
Location
Sweden
Forgot to mention that when I feel down I will sometimes benefit from B12 methylcobalamine and vitamin D.

I find meditation helpful too.

TCAs in particular amitriptyline is received wisdom for ME in the UK and I have found the mainstream NHS doctors recognise this but I am not sure this is a recommendation. Typically it is prescribed in small doses like 10mg as this is all that is needed to reduce neurological overactivity and promote a better sense of wellbeing.

I have to confess to a slight distrust of TCAs myself as I used to volunteer at a MIND charity center in the UK before diagnosis and one of the biggest problems was AD dependancy and addiction; the MIND position was that they are overprescribed and that social interventions are the kind of humanity we should be trying to achieve. Personally I feel overprescription may be more to do with pharmaceutical company economics than medical efficacy.

But from experience I can say that amitriptyline does help to reduce anxiety and mental overactivity in quite small doses. Though it was most useful when I was first diagnosed and getting over the trauma of the transition, on top of 10 years undiagnosed, so an aid in transition and adjustment. I would prefer not to take something like that over the long term myself.

Interesting. So TCA might be less irritating for the nervous system than SSRIs are?
 

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,318
There are some very tolerable antidepressants out there, it's just a shame that doctors most of the time won't prescribe them. For example:

-Moclobemide. Reversible MAOI that comes with almost none of the side effects and dietary restrictions that irreversible MAOI's carry. Is available in most European countries at least.
-Bupropion. I would say also better tolerated than SSRI's, with little side effects except for sleep disturbance.
-Lower dose SSRI. I understand you reacted badly to it, but I personally have very little side effects from SSRI's if I take something like 25% of the commonly prescribed starting dose. And it may be just as effective as well, a study recently found. So you might want to try another SSRI than Escitalopram at a 25% dosage.

@Alexandra90 Mood issues are often indicative of a nutrient need. Generally speaking SSRI anti-depressant drugs do not supply the missing nutrient, but prevent quick breakdown of certain nutrients.

It might be a whole lot better to find out what may be commonly missing in the diet nutrient wise, or if co-factors for particular nutrients are missing, or if one is suffering from nutrient depletion due to drugs, exercise, illness or the like.

At any rate no one is suffering from a deficiency of drugs... drugs usually complicate the picture and create more problems.

This is a common argument I hear against antidepressants, that you shouldn't prescribe Prozac because nobody has Prozac deficiency. While the second part is correct, medicines are not prescribed because you lack the medicine itself. Rituximab is not trialed in CFS/ME because CFS/ME patients would have Rituximab deficiency, LDN doesn't work because people have LDN deficiency, etc. So this argument is IMO void.

I believe myself that depression and anxiety most likely are associated with inflammation in the brain and a certain type of cytokine response. Yeah, certain dietary things may help to modulate that inflammation. But I don't believe that eating serotonin rich food or serotonin promoting nutrients would have any big impact on brain serotonin levels in the long run. The approach I tend to advocate with supplements is the one that @Hip has laid out in this informative thread.
 

dreamydays

Senior Member
Messages
182
Location
United Kingdom
Mirtazapine is an atypical antidepressant, I think it is much better tolerated than an SSRI. Its also at least as effective for anxiety as an SSRI in meta-analysis. Side affects are increased appetite and daytime sleepiness for the first week. Its also a great medication for insomnia. I haven't got a bad word to say about it, it even helps my POTS a little. Another natural alternative is St Johns Wort which works well but check for drug interactions if you take any medications.
 

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
@adamtomlinson You may find these articles regarding Mirtazapine of interest there are plenty more:

7 Important Nutrients Depleted by Psychiatric Drugs — Optimal Living ...

www.optimallivingdynamics.com/.../7-important-nutrients-depleted-by-psychiatric-dr...
Jul 19, 2016 - Studies show that pharmaceutical drugs can deplete your body of critical ... Mirtazapine (Remeron), Venlafaxine (Effexor), Amitriptyline (Elavil), ...
Mirtazapine withdrawal dilemma - advice needed please ...
https://patient.info/.../mirtazapine-withdrawal-dilemma-advice-needed-please--295436
Sep 14, 2014 - I started withdrawing from Mirtazapine back in Jan of this year, from 7.5mg. I got the liquid version .... Mirtazapine depletes: Vitamin B6, vitamin ...
In a terrible state, what should I do?
Feb 27, 2017
Getting ready to wean off Mirtazapine via CITA medthod. Any ...
Dec 30, 2014
New to this group and mirtazapine.
Oct 22, 2014
Always crazy hungry on mirtazapine!
Apr 24, 2014
More results from patient.info

Ask the ND: The Antidepressant Trap | Peoples Rx, Austin's Favorite ...

peoplesrx.com/ask-the-nd-the-antidepressant-trap/
Feb 2, 2015 - Remeron is not the only antidepressant drug which is known to ... Previously mentioned SSRI drugs deplete vitamins B6, B12 and folic acid.

[PDF]Rx Deplete+Interactions - Nutritional Solutions

www.nutritional-solutions.net/images/phocadownload/Rx_DepleteInteractions.pdf
...... Mirtazapine This drug increases nighttime secretion of melatonin...
 

dreamydays

Senior Member
Messages
182
Location
United Kingdom
From my perspective it has significantly reduced my insomnia, given me more physical strength and eliminated my mild anxiety. I haven't seen any published research to say nutrient depletion is a concern and a nighttime secretion of melatonin should be helpful for most people. What I would take seriously is withdrawal from any AD will cause problems for a good proportion of patients even with a slow taper. This is something to be aware of before you start. I would also add that unlike many other sufferers, I am not sensitive to medication. There is no reason not to start with 1/4 of a tablet the first night just in case you have a reaction to it. Mirtazapine will help sleep from the first dose but the anxiolytic and mood boosting effects will take a couple of weeks to kick in.
 
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HowToEscape?

Senior Member
Messages
626
The site linked to in a previous post 'optimal living dynamics' is a commercial site. They are pushing drugs for the alteration of mood and brain function. These drugs are labeled as supplements, which means they are unregulated. Maybe they work maybe they don't, maybe they're harmless maybe they're not. They are unregulated and they don't have to tell you, my guess is they carefully avoid finding out.

They're using a bit of hairsplitting to describe their products without using the word drug, as the medical and regulatory definitions of the word "drug" are not the same.

Prescription antidepressants are not risk free either, but some people find they help. What they do get are inspections and regulation, so you're getting the same thing in every bottle.
 

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
From the book; Antidepressants, Antipsychotics, and Stimulants
by Dr. David W. Tanton, Ph.D.www.drtanton.com

Nutrient Depletions

1. Adderall depletes:
Vitamin B12, vitamin C, and potassium.

2. Prozac depletes:
Vitamin B1, vitamin B2, vitamin B3, vitamin B6, vitamin B12, folic acid, vitamin C, vitamin D, coenzyme Q10, calcium, magnesium, manganese, selenium, sodium, zinc, and glutathione.

3. Paxil depletes:
Vitamin B1, vitamin B2, vitamin B3, vitamin B6, vitamin B12, folic acid, vitamin C, vitamin D, coenzyme Q10, calcium, magnesium, manganese, selenium, sodium, zinc, and glutathione.

4. Zoloft depletes:
Vitamin B1, vitamin B2, vitamin B3, vitamin B6, vitamin B12, folic acid, vitamin C, vitamin D, coenzyme Q10, calcium, magnesium, manganese, selenium, sodium, zinc, and glutathione.

5. Celexa depletes:
Vitamin B1, vitamin B2, vitamin B3, vitamin B6, vitamin B12, folic acid, vitamin C, vitamin D, coenzyme Q10, calcium, magnesium, manganese, selenium, sodium, zinc, and glutathione.

6. Wellbutrin/Zyban depletes:
Vitamin B6, vitamin C, vitamin D, coenzyme Q10, and sodium.

7. Remeron (Mirtazapine) depletes:
Vitamin B6, vitamin C, vitamin D, coenzyme Q10, and sodium.

8. Effexor depletes:
Vitamin B1, vitamin B2, vitamin B3, vitamin B6, vitamin B12, folic acid, vitamin C, vitamin D, coenzyme Q10, calcium, magnesium, manganese, selenium, sodium, zinc, and glutathione.

9. Risperdal depletes:
Vitamin A, vitamin B1, vitamin B12, biotin, folic acid, carnitine, inositol, vitamin C, vitamin D, vitamin K, and calcium.

10. Zyprexa depletes:
Vitamin A, vitamin B1, vitamin B12, biotin, folic acid, carnitine, inositol, vitamin C, vitamin D, vitamin K, and calcium.

11. Seroquel depletes:
Vitamin A, vitamin B1, vitamin B12, biotin, folic acid, carnitine, inositol, vitamin C, vitamin D, vitamin K, and calcium.

12. Depakote depletes:
Vitamin A, vitamin B1, vitamin B2, vitamin B12, biotin, folic acid, carnitine, inositol, vitamin C, vitamin D, vitamin K, calcium, magnesium, and Essential Fatty Acids.

Side-effect symptoms: http://www.resultsproject.net/Labs.pdf
 

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
Medication is not the answer to every question, but to claim that it isn't the answer to any question is in my opinion a very inflexible position
I don't recall anyone making that claim. However there is significant fraud in the anti-depressant industry with plenty of false claims made about these drugs. We live in a free enterprise system where many capitalize on the desperate.
 

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,318
Yeah, the guy sells his own holistic program and books, so he definitely has a conflict of interest there that should be considered when you read his writings about antidepressants. It's also suspicious that among each group of antidepressants he mentions identical lists of depleted nutrients, so I don't understand what this list is based on. What are his sources for this information? I couldn't find anything like this in a published research article, so my bullshit detector is in rather high alert here.
 

Paralee

Senior Member
Messages
571
Location
USA
I can't say much about anti-depressants except that the depletions should be important to consider. I've had to take them before and will again I'm pretty sure. Right now I'm on Ritalin until I can get straightened out on supplements, trying to get tests.

However, two little tips that work for me....1. If I'm getting sleepy and it doesn't seem like a natural sleepy, some salt and water will wake me up. 2. Ever get angry and not be able to figure out why? I do, and now I recognize that anger and go take a half a potassium. Within an hr or less it's gone. If everything could be so simple for me.