Time for the Big Talk. How's the CAA doing?

Andrew

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I appreciate that this is your personal experience, and I don't doubt it at all, but what about those of us, like myself, who weren't experiencing any meaningful stress in their happy lives right up until becoming ill?
Well, yes. That pattern exists too. I know people from my support group who were eating right, happy in their lives, and came down with CFS.

I just don't think it has to be either/or. There might be different triggering mechanism. One might be infection triggering XMRV, or another agent. One might be a physical trauma. I know a women whose CFS came after electrical trauma from lightning. It could be emotional stress. Because emotional stress can reduce the immune system and even bring about a change in gene expression. And there are probably also triggers that we have not even thought of. Maybe a genetic defect that allows XMRV or whatever to take hold.

FWIW, I believe that the CDC is purposely flaunting studies in a self-serving way that ignores the consensus of CFS experts, the overall findings of CFS research, and our personal experience. In fact, I see them as the enemy. But I don't see every stress study as the enemy.

Andrew
 

Marylib

Senior Member
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1,171
Riding the current

This CAA stuff keeps bouncing around in my head. I see things they do that make me angry. I see other things they do that make sense. I think I've been trying to see them as black hats, but this does not fit.

I'm using your quote, Andrew, as a springboard to express my thoughts as they have milled around and settled a bit. It is certainly not black and white to me either.

Cort, you have definitely not been sitting in the back of the bus! Your site and this forum have been invaluable.

I see the communique's from CAA and Hillary J. differently than you do, however. (And I see a need for a more radical change in any ME/CFS advocacy group than I believe you do.)

Hillary's language attacks actively, unmistakably. CAA's language attacks passively.

From what I have read recently, Cort, I believe you feel some of Vernon's language is simply "how scientists talk." I can't quite buy that. Certainly I have read plenty of scientific articles and also cautious comments from scientists regarding the XMRV findings. For example, look at Dr. Charles Shepherd's initial statements or that of Dr. Andrew Lloyd regarding WPI's paper. Both these statements were written with caution, conservatism. This ruffled some feathers as people did not want cold water thrown on their exuberance. And while I myself was in a exuberant frame of mind concerning XMRV, I respected and appreciated their cool heads. But you didn't see Shepherd or Lloyd congratulating themselves on their points of view, or pointing out their own virtues, as the CAA has done.

Maybe I am comparing apples to oranges here, if so, excuse me. I only have a few minutes of relative lucidity now and then and it requires lots of caffeine.


Bottom line for me:

There is a groundswell now in the ME/CFS community. Whether or not XMRV is replicated and whether or not I or others here test positive for it, we need to use this wave to our advantage.

The CAA is the group that went with our past. And what a troubled past it has been. The CDC saw to that. And whatever CAA's good intentions, the field is sullied, frankly, and now is our chance to rebuild.

When change comes, entrenched organizations either change radically or become more and more focused on maintaining their own existence. I think this is what Hillary J. was drumming home in her "when did it become all about them?" mantra.

So far, I see the CAA defending itself, and this tells me "Run." No institution gives up without a fight -- after all there are jobs and reputations at stake. But I don't want this to drag out forever. I find the passive aggression and defensiveness personally distressing. And a waste of energy . And money. And talent. And goodwill.
 

fresh_eyes

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The CAA is the group that went with our past. And what a troubled past it has been. The CDC saw to that. And whatever CAA's good intentions, the field is sullied, frankly, and now is our chance to rebuild.

When change comes, entrenched organizations either change radically or become more and more focused on maintaining their own existence.

Marylib, you've articulated something here that I've been feeling but have not been able to put my finger on. Well said.

The CAA has had the unenviable task of presiding over a dark era. They didn't create it, but it created them - and if it really is a new era (and I hope to God it is) they better start swimmin' or they'll sink like a stone.
 

cfs since 1998

Senior Member
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Caa

What really did it for me was the CAA's response regarding the Dr. Oz show. They said nothing about the hatchet job they did with Dr. Teitelbaum on the first episode, but then they slammed the second episode with Dr. Donnica Moore which most of us thought was a good thing, she did a great job, and they completely mischaracterized our response to it. What they wrote is patently absurd and inexplicable. Something is seriously and fundamentally wrong with the CAA, just like something is seriously and fundamentally wrong with the CDC. I have to agree with Hillary Johnson even if she gets a bit overzealous sometimes.
 

Cort

Phoenix Rising Founder
Honestly for me this

But you didn't see Shepherd or Lloyd congratulating themselves on their points of view, or pointing out their own virtues, as the CAA has done.

is not that important. Sure the CAA got a plug in on their research program. Sure maybe it was a little awkward. What matters to me is that they are doing good research and good projects. They spent an entire year attacking the CDC. They're doing fantastic innovative research on this disease - and there isn't much research getting done - that's what I care about. Isn't that what's most important? Isn't that what will affect us most in the long run.

What really did it for me was the CAA's response regarding the Dr. Oz show. They said nothing about the hatchet job they did with Dr. Teitelbaum on the first episode, but then they slammed the second episode with Dr. Donnica Moore

Did you know that the CFIDS Association nominated her to the federal advisory committee (CFSAC) Are you sure they slammed Dr. Donnica Moore? If so please provide the slam.

http://www.cfids.org/advocacy/cfsac-nominees09.pdf

The CAA has had the unenviable task of presiding over a dark era. They didn't create it, but it created them - and if it really is a new era (and I hope to God it is) they better start swimmin' or they'll sink like a stone.

The CAA just spent -as I noted above - the last year and a half actually getting Congressman and Senators help to dig into the CDC's records. They documented a program that is wasting enormous amounts of money and has a misplaced research focus and they slammed them for using the Empirical Definition, planning to do cognitive behavioral therapy studies and a lackluster program and they asked for Dr. Reeves head and that the entire program be moved to another part of the CDC. Can we agree that this is some pretty good swimming?

Wanna be well - I just showed you six research studies the CAA has undertaken over the past couple of years - none of which have to do with the stress response - and you give me one study by Dr. Vernon on HEALTHY people. Here's some of her last papers.

  • Cytokine polymorphisms have a synergistic effect on severity of the acute sickness response to infection.
  • Evidence of inflammatory immune signaling in chronic fatigue syndrome.
  • Neuroendocrine and immune network re-modeling in chronic fatigue syndrome
  • A systems genetic analysis implicates FOXN1 in chronic fatigue syndrome
  • Transcriptional control of complement activation in an exercise model of chronic fatigue syndrome.
  • Model-based therapeutic correction of hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis dysfunction.

Three are on the immune system, one is on an immune gene, one is on neuroendocrine and immune system and one is on the HPA axis. Maybe I'm not saying this as politely as I should but it does not appear to me that while Dr. Vernon's may have an interest in the stress response that is not her primary interest. Can we agree on that?

Can we also agree that the CFIDS Associations research program is not focused at all on the stress response system?
 

cfs since 1998

Senior Member
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Did you know that the CFIDS Association nominated her to the federal advisory committee (CFSAC) Are you sure they slammed Dr. Donnica Moore? If so please provide the slam.
I did not say they slammed Dr. Moore, I said they slammed the episode with her on it mischaracterizing the patient reception of the show...after saying nothing about the horrible Teitelbaum episode. This has already been posted in this forum, it was in the December CFIDSLink email newsletter:

"Dr. Oz featured CFS and XMRV on his Dec. 3 syndicated television program. The 13-minute segment disappointed many who hoped for a more comprehensive report."

By the way I believe Wikipedia refers to this as using "weasel words."
 

Cort

Phoenix Rising Founder
"Dr. Oz featured CFS and XMRV on his Dec. 3 syndicated television program. The 13-minute segment disappointed many who hoped for a more comprehensive report."

My apologies for mischaracterizing your comment. I don't know - Dr. Donnica said the same thing - a more comprehensive report would have been nice! I don't know if that warrants being called 'a slam' (?). Their communication certainly could have noted how good she was.....honestly I can see how they could have done it better but its not a huge deal for me.
 
M

mvwu

Guest
"Xplained" was changed

Cort, you said above: "I urge you to read it again. I don't [see] anything in XPlained that should bother anyone! Here it is: http://www.cfids.org/cfidslink/2009/110402.asp"

Ah, Cort, the reason that you found no criticism of WPI study in Vernons Xplained article is that either she or the CAA at some point edited them out of the article. The original Xplained piece, posted on the CFIDS site on October and linked to on their Facebook site, contained the following paragraph:

Unfortunately, the details about the CFS patients were not sufficient to enable independent investigators to select similar CFS patients. For example, we need to know the age, sex, duration of illness, medical history, and medication use to name a few characteristics of the studied patients to select CFS patients who are as similar as possible to the original group. We also need to know something about the healthy control subjects, since there is nothing in the paper or supplementary materials that describes how they were selected.

(The cache of the original article is here:
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...able+"&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari). You can also find it by Googling some of the above text and cfids. )
 

Marylib

Senior Member
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1,171
The Ivory Tower, question for Cort

Guess they are editing to try to downplay their defensiveness about WPI.

As I was saying in an earlier post, to me this sign of an organization in decline. The ivory tower gets higher and thicker, instead of softer and more accessible. I am not talking out of my hat. I witnessed such a thing in a non-profit I worked for.

Cort, we are not all just crazy you know. We are not all blazing in anger. We are picking up on something real, something fundamental, that we are dismayed to find in an advocacy organization. Cort, are you perhaps fearing that if you do not test positive for XMRV, that CAA will then be your sole lifeline, as it were? I apologize if this seems like "psychologizing." I don't mean it to be. I am just trying to understand where you are coming from. Please excuse me if this seems too personal a question. I have no intention of hurting anyone. I just feel we need a new start with our advocacy group.
 
M

mvwu

Guest
When I began to question....

Until I read Susan Vernon’s Xplained in mid-October, I’d had no opinions on the CAA’s effectiveness as an advocacy group. This changed abruptly when I read her paragraph below, for, as a Ph.D. scientist, I know no study gets published in the heavily peer-reviewed Science unless adequate detail is available to allow replication.

Susan Vernon -- Xplained:

“Unfortunately, the details about the CFS patients were not sufficient to enable independent investigators to select similar CFS patients. For example, we need to know the age, sex, duration of illness, medical history, and medication use – to name a few characteristics – of the studied patients to select CFS patients who are as similar as possible to the original group"

(This paragraph has been deleted from the version of Xplained now on-line. I give the link to the cached version in my posting above.)

I’d read the same criticism only one other place. Bill Reeves had been paraphrased a week or so earlier in the New York Times as saying he “was surprised that a prestigious journal like Science had published [the WPI study], because the researchers did not state the ages or sex of the patients and controls, or describe the duration of the illness or how it came on.”

Upon reading Vernon’s apparent echo of Bill Reeves’ criticism, I immediately contacted the CAA asking for clarification. When I heard nothing back, I emailed info@WPi.org with my questions. Within hours, Judy Mikovits responded. She posted the essence of her email to me on the WPI Question and Answer page three days later:

http://www.wpinstitute.org/xmrv/xmrv_qa.html

"Who were the patients and healthy controls in the recent XMRV study published in Science? [view answer...] Every patient sample used in the study (taken from the nationwide WPI repository gathered from several regional physician practices) had a physician's diagnosis of CFS. To further validate the samples, the research team used the well-established CDC and Canadian Consensus Criteria for CFS in every case. The healthy controls were healthy people who came to a doctor's office for a routine sample or from DNA used in routine diagnostics. 

In order to meet legal human assurance requirements, identifiers for the control population are not available to the investigators. Nor was additional information on the patient samples used in this study. Age, sex, duration of illness, medical history and medication use have no impact on the identification of a new human retroviral pathogen. 


"Would having other details about the patients impact the ability of others to replicate this work? [view answer...]
No, but one must have the appropriate testing methods and tools to replicate. Retroviruses do not discriminate based on age, sex or any other characteristic listed. Additionally, because the healthy controls were zip code matched, as well as age and sex matched, no further information on the controls is needed. 

These CFS patients have a diagnosis of CFS as described by the Canadian Consensus and CDC definitions. There is nothing unique about these patients. In this research 67% of the study group had an active infectious retrovirus in their blood versus 3.75% of the healthy controls. 

The scientists who refereed this paper concluded that we met every scientific and clinical criterion with the rigor required by a journal with the highest standards in the world. Science and its referees understand the importance of the finding that a new human retrovirus is infectious and transmissible and highly associated with CFS."

The criticism by Susan Vernon and Bill Reeves of the WPI study was unfounded. I had to wonder – and still wonder -- why she, a presumably independent scientist representing patients, would make the same amateurish mistake as Mr. Reeves.

I have two family members with this horrible disease, Their lives have been severely compromised, and without effective research backed by a strong advocacy group, we live with the possibility they may become unable to support themselves and their child. WE need an advocacy group that fully backs the strongest research in the field and criticizes, not echoes, government misinformation.
 

fresh_eyes

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mvwu, thanks so much for pointing out that Xplained had been changed! I had re-read it and wondered what indeed I'd found so defensive initially - now it's all cleared up.

And yes, a big part of the problem with the CAA was that their words so echoed Reeves'. I truly have nothing against the CAA, and have thought people were probably exaggerating to think they're actually in league with Reeves, but now, frankly, I'm not so sure.
 

annunziata

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Hudson Valley
When you go to the CDC website, under "News and Highlights" at the right of their CFS page, it announces, prominently, "New Study Linking Sexual Abuse and CFS".

I ask you, do you think that is legitimate CFS research? Reeves' whole slant has been the psychogenic, school-of-Straus one. Isn't this more than ample proof of that? Never mind that large numbers of patients report sudden, flu-like onset. And that there is a long history of what has been variously called ME or epidemic neuromyasthenia which the CDC itself USED to believe was physical. You have only to read Berton Roueche's account, in "The Orange Men", of the CDC's investigation of the Punta Gorda outbreak. I wrote to Mr. Roueche ca. 1989 (the correspondence was unfortunately destroyed in a house fire) about the appalling response of our federal health agencies to what might be new outbreaks of the same or a similar disease. He responded that he was sorry the CDC seemed to have lost interest in it. That was his characterization. I wish I still had his letter.
 

Cort

Phoenix Rising Founder
Fine they edited out a paragraph. They realized it was a mistake and they removed it and rest of it was fine.

I don't get this at all. Despite the fact that the CAA spent a year documenting and then publicly airing the deficiencies on Dr. Reeves team and asking the CDC to remove him you are have decided based on something that REMINDED you of something Dr. Reeves said - that the CAA is in league with the CDC.

Did you look at the public testimony of the CFIDS Association regarding the CDC? Did you look at my interview with Kim McCleary? Did you look at any of the many public documents regarding their analysis of the CDC?
 

Cort

Phoenix Rising Founder
I'm going to start posting some of these documents : Here's from my blog- this is on the Patient Registry from the CDC - Every single bit of information on here came from the CFIDS Association

Registering Dismay: the CDC’s (Platinum) Patient Registry
by CORT on JUNE 18, 2009


CFS has a long and twisted history with the CDC but perhaps nothing in it has been odder than the strange story of their Patient Registry. This project involves contacting physicians in a small county in rural Georgia (Bibb County, population 150,000) and having them refer patients to the CDC. The patient is then screened by telephone to determine if they might have CFS or unexplained fatigue. If they might then they’re invited to spend a day taking tests at a clinic to determine if they do. The patients that end up with a confirmed diagnosis of CFS or unexplained fatigue will, potentially, be followed for a number of years to see how their disease progresses and will be eligible to participate in future studies.

That’s all well and good; no one’s complaining about the idea of having a patient registry or tracking a patient’s progress over time. (But then again no one would object to the idea of building a bridge to join a small island community to the mainland.) The problem is the cost. The CFIDS Association of America, particular, has had trouble swallowing how much this bridge the CDC is building to the patient community has cost. Yes, medical research is expensive but the money the CDC has been shoveling out is incredible. You’ve heard of the Golden Toilet? Welcome to the Platinum Registry.

Simply to get Abt Associates to develop the Patient Registry on paper cost the CDC a whopping $1, 413,000. Let’s put this in some context. $1,413,000 is about half the entire budget of the NIH’s ME/CFS research program . The CFIDS Association of America is funding six pilot studies for less than $1 million. The Whitmore Peterson Institute’s annual budget is $1 million.

Before a single doctor filled a single test tube this project was already one of the most expensive studies ever undertaken in this diseae. Did we mention that this, too, is a pilot study? According to the CDC’s webpage “The Registry is a one-year pilot study.” Hold onto your horses. We haven’t even gotten past the paper stage yet - let alone to that first year.

The next step involved having Abt produce a ’statement of work’ (SOW). SOW ‘s contain the nitty-gritty of the project; it includes such things as project timelines, specific budget requirements , etc. This must have been a very difficult document to get together since the CDC paid Abt. almost $600,000 ($583,767) to do it.

Obviously something’s gone very wrong here. We’re not talking about small overrun’s; this is more like defense contractor type stuff. Many large studies - with their planning, laboratory costs, patient recruitment, data analysis and publishing - don’t cost $600,000. (And we’re still in stage two of the planning stage). If Abt charged the CDC $50 an hour to produce this document it took them $12,000 man-hours to do it That’s six people working 40 hours a week (no vacations) for a year. (On the other hand it did take them a year to simply put the SOW together…).

These figures obviously don’t even begin to make sense. What was going on here? It’s possible Dr. Reeves funnelled money for the entire project into the first two payments. (If that’s true then Abt was allowed to sit on an enormous amount of money for several years as the project wouldn’t even begin for another year and a half after the SOW was completed. CFIDS Association has noted that several payments came just before the end of the CDC’s fiscal year when the CFS research program may have had money left over. In any case it points to a grand budgetary mess.

The next year the CFS team would spend almost $200,000 on the Patient Registry doing some focus groups . It wasn’t until that was done - in the fourth year after the project had began - that Dr. Reeves submitted it to the Office of Management and Budget for approval. Somehow one of the most expensive project in ME/CFS history essentially got paid for before it was ever approved. No wonder the CDC has been under attack for mismanagement.

Not Research But ….. But calling this project a ‘research project’ is entirely inaccurate -no research will be done here; all this 2+ million dollar I year project will do is provide patients for the CDC to study. The only ‘research’ this project will engage in is determining whether a patient has CFS are not.

Not that this matters to the participants in the study; none of them will ever be told if they have CFS or not. That’s right. Despite CDC statements that getting treatment early in the course of this disease none of the participants in their study are going to be told if they actually have it.

If we were talking about AIDS research a million dollar overrun or so wouldn’t merit mention. But this is ME/CFS - a disease that already sits at the very bottom of the federal government funding priorities. This is a disease the federal government spends only about $6 a year per patient on. A disease that’s suffering dramatic declines in research funding. A disease that the CDC’s own staff admits is receiving 25% less funds that it was 10 years ago. At this level wasting money can really matters.

Opportunity Cost - Opportunity Lost . The evidence suggests that Dr. Reeves has spent so much money getting patients into this registry that he has little money to do much with them afterwards. According to the Five Year Draft Strategic Plan the biggest CFS research effort on the planet will be engaging in just two laboratory research projects over the next five years. It appears that a good chunk of the money the CDC has and will spend on ‘research’ will simply go to finding the ‘right’ patients.

A Cadillac Researcher on a Pinto Budget? Dr. Reeves has always had bigger plans for any ME/CFS than his budget warranted. He initiated a very expensive random sampling scheme to gather his patients in the late 1990’s. Then he created a definition that inflated the patient base so much that efforts to subset them became mandatory. He argued that the criteria and the bloated population figures were irrelevant - that once patients were being rigorously measured the subsets should pop out. Yet the big studies needed to ferret out those subsets were never done and five years and at least $40 million later subsets are still not popping out at the CDC. Instead of the increased rigor and the clean slate we were promised we’re left with a huge population of ‘CFS’ patients that the research community has no faith in and a definition that needs and apparently will be redone.

Hitting the Wall - Dr. Reeve’s ‘big vision’ worked ‘OK’ when he had payback funds to play with and when he and his research team were able to find collaborators to make up for the programs big upfront expenses but the CDC’s research team now appears to be hitting the wall. Dr. Vernon, the program’s lab chief left and has not been replaced and another member of the team that recently left has not been replaced either. At a time when this program desperately needs collaborators to maximize its reduced funding levels the only people it’s collaborating appear to be charging Cadillac prices for their efforts.

Abt Jumps In. Undoubtedly overjoyed at the results from their past efforts Abt. Associates opened a new branch in Atlanta in July , 2008 specifically to drum up more business from the CDC. Kathleen Flanagan, Group Vice President for Social, Economic and Health Policy at Abt Associates stated”We are confident that our new Atlanta office will enable us to strengthen communications with our CDC contacts, maximize project continuity, and enhance both the effectiveness and cost-efficiency of our project work.”

Who would not want to take advantage of research program that paid over $2 million to develop a protocol and a ‘statement of work’? A research program that will doesn’t, from what we can to tell, appear to mind seeing start dates pushed back again and again? That is willing to allow a firm to take a year to develop a ‘Statement of Work’. That appears to respond to delays with even more infusions of money? Given Abt’s apparent windfall with their last CFS project it’s not surprising that the chronic fatigue syndrome was featured prominently in their press release. So long as the CDC is acting like a cash cow they are, like any good business, going to do their best to milk it.

The Patient Registry What has happened to the Patient Registry? It opened in September 2008. It’s apparently enrolling patients and will run for one year and then it will be over - unless the CDC decides it’s been worth the cost…

The Review Continues: We’re in the meat of the review period right now. The CDC has submitted their five year Strategic Draft Plan and is taking comments until June 30. The CFIDS Association of America and the IACFS/ME should be submitting their comments shortly. Sometime after June 30 the CDC will submit a final version of the CFS research teams five year plan.
 

Cort

Phoenix Rising Founder
Kim McCleary on the CDC's Five Year Plan

Here's a blog on the CAA's response to the CDC's Five Year Plan

Kim McCleary On the CDC’s Five Year Plan by CORT on JUNE 2, 2009

]
“I was sitting there yesterday (during the CDC presentation) feeling like my head was going to blow off my shoulders”

The CFID’s Association of America has been leading the way on the CDC review. Kim McCleary sits through every CFSAC meeting - not an easy task in that often mostly empty room - and takes notes. It was the contrast between what Dr. Reeves said the program was going to do and what it actually did that apparently triggered their investigation. Projects that were supposed to start didn’t, others that started seemed to drag on and on and they seemed to have lost their zest. The CAA began taking a deeper look. When the ten year review came up they reported their findings. They called for more accountability, for a strategic plan with specific goals, for more creative research, for new leadership and a new home for the program - basically they called for a complete overhaul of the program.

The Plan - They didn’t get any of it. It was as if their complaints had fallen on deaf ears. Despite all the calls for specifics Dr. Reeves gave a talk that was big on the past but which gave little indication that the CDC had tightened up its ship. I was able to talk to Kim during a break. It seemed to me that Dr. Reeves had spent most his time talking about either the past or how the plan had come about. He didn’t seem to address the future much. I asked her about that and she agreed.

“Dr. Reeves spent all his time on past history and then nobody realized that we’re supposed to be thinking about 2014. Where’s that in this plan?“

“That Vision Thing” One of the CFID’s Association’s chief concerns - perhaps their major concern - is what they believe has been the program’s lack of vision and a paucity of innovative research. (The latest publication from the group examined just two common immune factors). I asked her if present plan give her any hope in this area? It didn’t.

“The fMRI stuff they’re doing has been done by Deluca, Lange and others. Now they want to study CBT- well, that’s been studied to death by NIH funded investigators and by investigators in the UK. We don’t need more data on that. It’s basically a kitchen sink plan with a few popular accessories.”

The CFID’s Association believes there are lots of good ideas out there but few of them are making it to the CDC’s research team. It’s not that the research the CDC is doing is necessarily ‘bad’ but what the group has missed out on by making the choices it has. The cost of doing another sleep study, a two-factor inflammation study, another CBT study , a metabolic syndrome study, is not participating in other research avenues. Kim noted that

“Many research teams come to them with ideas for collaboration and they’re told “It’s a great project but we don’t have the money to do that”….but it’s all about opportunity costs. If you’ve got four or five million dollars and you’re going to study unwellness in Bibb County, Georgia and you’re going to collaborate with a psychiatry group at Emory and with Peter White on implementing the NICE guidelines in the United States then you can’t do any other things because you’ve spent all your money on those things. “

Collaboration? Another frequently cited problem during the comment session and by the CFSAC panel itself was a lack of collaboration. The CFSAC panel bluntly took Dr. Reeves to task for treating the rest of the research community as junior partners or almost underlings.

Now the CDC was stating that three international workshops would take place over the next year. What was the CAA’s take on this development? Did it suggest that the CDC that this rather closed program was finally opening up? Kim McCleary was not holding her breath noting once again that the plan lacked specifics - there weren’t any with regard to workshop membership - which left the program more than enough wiggle room to continue acting as it had in the past.

“They didn’t describe how they are going to pick participants or the agenda. We’ll see if they control the participant list as they have for the past five years. Someone said yesterday that your (the CDC’s) “idea of partnership seems to be more like subcontracting than it is getting real engagement and trying to get people’s ideas in on the front end.”

Dr Reeves had originally promised an international workshop would take place in 2008 but here it was the middle of 2009 - evidence of another project that had gone off the rails. Poor planning had been a key theme of the CAA’s report.
Fiscal Accountability? After all the CFIDS Association’s documentation of fiscal mismanagement the plan also lacked basic aspects of fiscal accountability. The CFSAC panel pointedly asked the CDC personnel how they expected to achieve the results of their plan given the meager funding the program now receives. None of the staffers had an answer for that. This kind of oversight, coming on the tail-end of the CFIDS Association investigation that found evidence of poor accountability came as a bit of shock.
“They didn’t even have a sense of how much it would cost to do this. That was another kind of astounding thing”

This made me wonder if the CDC had ever really taken note of the CFIDS Association’s assertions of fiscal problems. They CAA formally asked the CDC to provide semi-annual reviews of their expenditures. What was their response?
“They have said that they will continue to be transparent but they weren’t specific about when. They should at least provide that information in the agency’s annual report to Congress. They’ve been responsive to requests for data, but nobody’s doing any serious analysis. The Emory GCRC study is now, I believe, over four million dollars (through 2008) for 60 patients and 30 controls to analyze response to a public speaking stress test. That’s about $50,000 per subject, or $150,000 per CFS patient studied.”

I noted that makes it probably the most expensive research project ever…..Kim responded

“Exactly and they can account for every penny of it but nobody seems to care whether that’s the right thing to spend that money on. That’s the kind of accountability I’m looking for - not just a pretty spreadsheet where all the totals add up. “

You went to the leadership. You had congressional support. Was there any recognition that they’ve kind of fumbled away a lot of money?

“No - no recognition”

How about the idea that they are pursuing less than creative research avenues?

“No, no recognition . I mean that was what this whole strategic planning process was about. I’m going to go back and look at the latest research planning update - I think it was from 2006. I’ll bet most of it is consistent with this plan, which was supposed to be forward thinking - looking ahead five years. I don’t see anything in here that’s particularly innovative.”

Willful Disregard? The CAA didn’t jump on the CDC out of the blue. They got access to CDC records, studied them and over the last year or so have tried to work out their differences in private. It was only after that didn’t work that they went public. They’ve richly documented their assertions. They’re known for their objectivity. If anything the patient community thinks they’re are too conservative. Given their history and the amount of work they did their lack of traction at the agency is troubling. It suggests that the program’s success is simply not a priority at the agency.

CFS Still Odd Man Out at the CDC - I talked to the Director of the Rickettsial Branch, Dr. Monroe and the CDC’s liason to the CFSAC, Sarah Wiley, at the break. I asked if it wasn’t a bit much to ask their researchers to cover so much ground (find subsets, biomarkers, redefine the disease, provide treatment trials, determine prevalence, educate physicians and public health officials, etc. ) on 25% less money than they had 10 years ago.

They admitted the difficulties but said their hands were tied - it was Congress, after all, that decided how much they could spend on chronic fatigue syndrome. But surely Congress asked for the CDC’s recommendations on spending? “ Yes” . Had they ever recommended increasing spending over the past ten years. “No”. Dr. Monroe implied that if they had it would have been cut at higher levels anyway.

To the CDC’s credit they’ve funded studies that have very powerfully shown the high societal costs this disorder has. To their discredit they’ve completely ignored the implications of those studies. It bears repeating - the CDC is spending 25% less on chronic fatigue syndrome than it did ten years ago.

It could very well be that the CDC just doesn’t want to participate in the hassle of finding new leadership, moving the program to a better place in the agency and re-organizing it. If they’re allowing its budget to drop so significantly even as they’re increasing their prevalence figures four-fold why should we think they have any interest in listening to anyone’s concerns about the program? Over the past year Kim has interacted with CDC officials more than anyone else. I wondered whether the CDC just wasn’t really concerned about how effective this program is. She stated

“I don’t know how to make it any more clear to them that they should be concerned. I sat with Sarah Wiley and Mike Miller and Steve Monroe in Senator’s Reid’s office a year ago”.

But then something happened - the November External Peer Review….

“ I think they were ready to recognize the need to change before the November peer review. That clearly became their inoculation against any criticism of the program. Reeves’ comments yesterday about Peter White being a favorite “sparring partner” should have been enough to indicate the conflict of interest he had in participating as 1 of four people on the peer review.”

A Defining Moment -The Peer Review was produced by four invited researchers who spent three days at the CDC and then shortly thereafter produced a report that addressed none of the CFID’s Association’s claims. It hailed the CDC’s accomplishments, proposed that they build a international research network, and proposed that they lead the field with regard to treatment guidelines and physician education. They also backed the Empirical Definition.

Not long after this Dr. Reeves faced a barrage of complaints about his lack of collaboration, both the CFSAC and IACFS/ME called for the ditching of the Empirical definition and both asserted that new leadership was needed at the CDC. At the same time the external review panel was proposing the CDC lead the field in educating physicians the CFIDS Association released a physician education program on Medscape (which Dr. Reeves refused to collaborate on) which enrolled more physicians in a couple of months than the moribund CDC provider education program had in years.

Kryptonite - In short the report turned out to be out of touch with virtually every other assessment of the CDC’s program yet it’s become the fulcrum CDC officials have used to turn away every negative assessment of the program. It’s basically been kryptonite to the CFID’s Association’s and other attempts to induce major reforms at the CDC. It was immediately posted to their website and CDC officials bring it up again and again. At the latest meeting Dr. Reeves hailed it frequently and Dr. Monroe exclaimed what an excellent report it was. The CDC’s focus on it has naturally left Kim McCleary more than a little chagrined.

“A friend sent me an e-mail last night after watching the videocast suggesting that we create a new drinking game. Every time somebody from CDC mentions the 2008 external peer review as a reason why they can do whatever they want to do, we take a drink. I’d have been drunk before lunch time whether I drank scotch or vanilla extract.”

The Next Step. Patients who feel change is needed got a boost in the arm from the IACFS/ME’s and the CFSAC’s recommendations. The CDC seems resolved not to make major changes in the CFS program but the review period is not over and one wonders how they can not respond to the increasing roar for change.

The (real) Draft Five Year Strategic Plan has been released on the CDC’s site and they’re taking comments until June 30th. We have a new Secretary of the Dept of Health and Human Services (Gov. Sibelius) and new leadership at the CDC itself. Using their virtual lobby day technology the CAA is providing patients the opportunity to make their views known to the CDC and to request Secretary Sibelius to implement the CFSAC panel’s recommendation for new leadership at the CDC. The process continues…
 

Cort

Phoenix Rising Founder
Cort, are you perhaps fearing that if you do not test positive for XMRV, that CAA will then be your sole lifeline, as it were? I apologize if this seems like "psychologizing." I don't mean it to be. I am just trying to understand where you are coming from. Please excuse me if this seems too personal a question. I have no intention of hurting anyone. I just feel we need a new start with our advocacy group.

I don't mean it to be psychologizing???? Are you kidding???

I show you that the CAA is funding really innovative research into ME/CFS and you ask me if I'm psychologizing? I point out that they dug up enough negative research on the CDC to take many programs down and you ask me if I"M psychologizing?[/B] I point out (awhile ago) that they produced a good physician education program that has trained over 35,000 physicians in the first year on ME/CFS and you think I'm defending the CAA because I might test negative for XMRV?

I'm defending them because they're doing excellent work. I think I'm making a great case for them actually. Let me ask you this.

  • Do you consider that those are good research topics? Do you believe that they may help ME/CFS patients?
  • Do you believe our national organization should go after the CDC when its appropriate? Do you believe the CAA did that?
  • Do you believe an ME/CFS physician education program is a good thing? Do you believe the CAA did that?

Please answer those questions and tell me why that record of success in the last year and a half or so is not good enough for you. I think the CAA has had a spectacular last two years - its best two years ever actually.

CDC/Physician training program/ Research Intiative/ International Research Network/ Banbury Conference
- its good stuff! Maybe people aren't aware of it - I don't know.
 

fresh_eyes

happy to be here
Messages
900
Location
mountains of north carolina
When the first XMRV announcement came, I hadn't really had anything to do with the CFS community in years, and the CAA's Xplained was the first time I'd paid much attention to them. My takeaway from their statement (the part they later edited out) was that there was a BIG flaw in this study, that the cohort and controls were not adequately defined. In retrospect, this is untrue, and now I can see why people question their motives. Just my experience.
 

Marylib

Senior Member
Messages
1,171
Cort, you perhaps misunderstood me

Cort, I was accusing myself of possibly psychologizing, not you. I feared that my post would sound like that of an "armchair psychiatrist."

I will be happy to answer your other questions in a post soon, but I wanted to make sure that you knew I was not accusing you of anything.

Certainly my own life and my opinions are informed by my personal feelings, hopes and fears. Including my feelings about the CAA. That is why I asked you if perhaps your feelings about the CAA were informed by yours. I was attempting to understand, not to accuse. Obviously the answer to my question is no.

I apologize again, as I did in advance in my previous post, if I offended you. I feared I might, and I did not intend to do so.

Answers to the other questions you asked are coming in another post.
 
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