• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Thoughts treatments / cell danger response

renski

Senior Member
Messages
338
Location
Honolulu
Hello,

Can anyone make sense of this write up by the better health guy, he's quoting Neil Nathan regarding cell danger response.

If you aren't addressing a toxin or infection then how do you get out of the CDR? He also says ozone or hbot won't work earlier on either.
As he says here:
  • Vitamin D, lysine, methylation support, P5P, treatment of metals, toxins, infections, and KPU could be helpful tools once out of the CDR or coupled with Suramin; cannot use these when in survival mode

  • Tends to avoid mitochondrial supplements early in treatment
  • IV NAD, peptides, ozone, stem cells, fecal transplants are all popular; doing them in early CDR will often backfire or do nothing
  • HBOT and oxygen therapies are not logical tools early in the CDR; would work better at end of CDR
  • When Suramin becomes available, it could be a game changer if used properly
  • There is no test yet to know which stage of the CDR a patient is in
  • When there is observed improvement and are 50% better, may then do a trial of CoQ10, L-Carnitine, D-Ribose and observe the response; if no response or a negative response, may still be "stuck"
  • For patients that tolerate glutathione, it can be very helpful; he has an equal or larger group of patients that feel horrible when they mobilize toxin faster than they can process it; double-edged sword
  • Glutathione is the end product of methylation; sends the message that the body can stop methylating; use caution in sensitive patients
https://www.betterhealthguy.com/chr...yInPvakAXlgpPZT0MdVRDG8OVYsA45VvTTuXoEQnaeFfA
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
Can anyone make sense of this write up by the better health guy, he's quoting Neil Nathan regarding cell danger response.
Maybe it's my balky brain today, but this makes absolutely no sense to me. It's like one of those old woven Mexican finger traps, where the harder you pull, the more stuck you become.

I know I'm missing something, or at last I think I must be, but I'm ..... baffled ...


Thank you for the link to the better health guy page. Highly informative, but halfway thru I wanted to open my wrists and by the last bullet point, I was mentally composing my last will and testament. It's just ..... overwhelming .....
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,564
Location
Seattle
Yes is a lot to take in, he has write ups from many other conferences as well which are even longer..
Scott Forsgren is IMO, a con artist. He does nothing but promote (literally) dozens of different naturopaths with their dozens of 'essential' treatments for x-y-z diseases or conditions. I've been around long enough so that I've seen when he's said THIS cured my lymes, then THIS, did, and then, no, it was THIS that finally put me in remission. Sheesh...

The fact that he praises Dietrich Klinghardt -- King of the Quacks -- of all people, should send up red flags to any thinking person.
 

Hope_eternal

Senior Member
Messages
276
Scott Forsgren is IMO, a con artist. He does nothing but promote (literally) dozens of different naturopaths with their dozens of 'essential' treatments for x-y-z diseases or conditions. I've been around long enough so that I've seen when he's said THIS cured my lymes, then THIS, did, and then, no, it was THIS that finally put me in remission. Sheesh...

The fact that he praises Dietrich Klinghardt -- King of the Quacks -- of all people, should send up red flags to any thinking person.
Just curious why you think Klinghardt is a quack? Coincidentally my sister sent me their link this morning. My son may possibly have Lymes (confirming with IGeneX test) and we are looking into treatments if he should be be diagnosed. Thank you for any insights you can offer.
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,564
Location
Seattle
Just curious why you think Klinghardt is a quack? Coincidentally my sister sent me their link this morning. My son may possibly have Lymes (confirming with IGeneX test) and we are looking into treatments if he should be be diagnosed. Thank you for any insights you can offer.
Because I experienced his 'A.R.T' treatments personally. Years ago a friend volunteered to help pay for my medical care as she was so frustrated that my family wouldn't "step up" as she said. We chose a doc who was second in command -- had learned from him, and I believe still practices, emphasis on the word 'practices'.
Here's a post of mine describing his "testing" in more detail:

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/frustrated.77106/page-13#post-2269872

And you can find more on his 'Klinghardt Academy" page. Just loads of nonsense, not based even in nutrition, let alone anything remotely connected to science. I went to the clinic for almost 2 years -- felt I couldn't refuse for quite awhile because this friend had spent so much. But finally I had to say no -- and she agreed, as my health was so much worse.

Here's just the "training" one supposedly needs for just part ONE of the A.R.T. training. The guy's making money hand over fist with his hundreds, literally hundreds, of different 'classes' that one supposedly needs in order to become 'Klinghardt' trained.

https://klinghardtinstitute.com/art1/

I'll give him this however: He's a charming, charismatic guy. A salesman, not a doctor. Please save your hard-earned money and go anywhere else. If you're in the greater Seattle area, you can find great naturopaths at Bastyr and other clinics.

As for Igenex, I'd personally get second, third, and even tenth opinions on that operation as well. Ask yourself, why do almost ALL their tests come back positive, when they don't at other labs? My guess...great for business.
 

Hope_eternal

Senior Member
Messages
276
@dannybex Thank you so much for your detailed response. I’m so sorry the treatment made things worse for you. Are you doing any better now? I hope so. I was told IGeneX was the best test you could get. My son tested positive on three bands for lymes on the Western blot test so his functional doctor recommended the IGeneX test. It’s so hard to know what direction to go with this illness. It’s easy to fall prey to scams because modern medicine hasn’t, up until recently, taken much interest in it. We are left to sort through all the supposed treatments and theories in hopes it’s sound and produces positive results —oftentimes a gamble that doesn’t pay off in the end —it’s very disheartening. Thank you again for sharing your experience with me.
 
Last edited:

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,564
Location
Seattle
@dannybex Thank you so much for your detailed response. I’m so sorry the treatment made things worse for you. Are you doing any better now? I hope so. I was told IGeneX was the best test you could get. My son tested positive on three bands for lymes on the Western blot test so his functional doctor recommended the IGeneX test. It’s so hard to know what direction to go with this illness. It’s easy to fall prey to scams because modern medicine hasn’t, up until recently, taken much interest in it. We are left to sort through all the supposed treatments and theories in hopes it’s sound and produces positive results —oftentimes a gamble that doesn’t pay off in the end —it’s very disheartening. Thank you again for sharing your experience with me.
Not doing good at all right now (due not to ME/CFS, but untreated anemia that I mistakenly attributed to ME/CFS and a lot of extra stressors, one after the other, in 2023).

In hindsight, the anemia probably started around June, but I was also dealing with an ulcer/wound on my foot from venous insufficiency. It would sting really badly at night, so I stopped the b12oils and methylfolate (etc), thinking they might be making the stinging worse – which was a huge, huge mistake. Turns out I was getting hardly any folate in my meals, not to mention iron, so by December I crashed as hard as anyone can – and ended up in a wheelchair for the last 10 weeks – lost a lot of muscle that I barely had -- plus a week in the hospital, and now in an adult group home. Not exactly what I’d planned for this year.

I’ve had this illness/disease/condition for 25+ years, and was able to go into remission a couple times early on, and semi-remission up until about 2005. But when I ran out of funds, stress went waaaay up – plus there were a few years of quacks – including Klinghardt’s 2nd in command as noted earlier – that contributed to the worsening, and kind of spooked me off of methylation…for about 7-8 years.

Still, after about a year or so of slow but steady improvement, by late 2021, I was able to walk/climb up to the 5th floor of my apartment building, walk around the perimeter, walk down the steps to the mailroom on the other side of the building, then back up to the 5th floor, and back down to my apartment on the 2nd floor. I could walk into stores or banks and stand in line without worrying when the pain and weakness would set in. Overall, a 70% improvement that lasted about six months.

The mistake I made was thinking I didn’t need the supplements anymore. So I took less of them, and also cut back too fast on the clonazepam I was taking…and here we are.

But despite the rather dire circumstances, I know I can get better. Certainly not as fast as I’d like, but I have no other choice. The ulcer/wound on my foot has healed, and just yesterday I walked 15 feet with a walker for the first time in 10 weeks, something I couldn’t have done even a month ago. Still iron deficient, so a lot of restless legs and lack of sleep, but I’m committed to turning this around.

Aren’t you glad you asked? 😊

Anyway, I mention this only to counter the reports or studies that say “Only 5% recover”, or “if you’ve been sick for more than 5 years”, you might as well just give up, or something to that effect. There are many like me – many on this forum -- who’ve been sick for decades who have gotten better. Maybe not 100%, but better enough to live a more normal life.

Regarding your son: I guess that makes sense to try Igenex if he tested positive w/the Western Blot. I know -- believe me I know -- it can be overwhelming to sort through various treatments, protocols, this supp or that. What I learned to do is to look for studies on Pubmed or other journals that back up a particular nutrient's benefits -- be it vitamin, mineral, an amino acid, a probiotic, prebiotic, etc.. It doesn't have to be a study about lyme's or ME/CFS, although that can be a plus.

I'll pm you with a couple extra thoughts.
 

hapl808

Senior Member
Messages
2,116
Still, after about a year or so of slow but steady improvement, by late 2021, I was able to walk/climb up to the 5th floor of my apartment building, walk around the perimeter, walk down the steps to the mailroom on the other side of the building, then back up to the 5th floor, and back down to my apartment on the 2nd floor. I could walk into stores or banks and stand in line without worrying when the pain and weakness would set in. Overall, a 70% improvement that lasted about six months.

That's an amazing improvement. What do you think was the main driver of that? Particular supplements, clonazepam, etc?
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,564
Location
Seattle
That's an amazing improvement. What do you think was the main driver of that? Particular supplements, clonazepam, etc?
Mainly, the B12oils protocol (B12, B2, plus the trace minerals selenium, iodine and molybdenum), plus I added methylfolate and d-ribose. I also add some krebs cycle nutrients from time to time (B1, B3, biotin) but haven't had that tested in years.

There are several threads here on the B12oils protocol, with others improving too. Some of them tweak their version of it as well.

It wasn't the clonazepam though. That would be a great drug if it weren't habituating/addictive. They've even stopped prescribing it -- at least in medicaid clinics -- because of that fact. Incredibly difficult to taper off of, at least for some.
 
Last edited:

Hope_eternal

Senior Member
Messages
276
Not doing good at all right now (due not to ME/CFS, but untreated anemia that I mistakenly attributed to ME/CFS and a lot of extra stressors, one after the other, in 2023).

In hindsight, the anemia probably started around June, but I was also dealing with an ulcer/wound on my foot from venous insufficiency. It would sting really badly at night, so I stopped the b12oils and methylfolate (etc), thinking they might be making the stinging worse – which was a huge, huge mistake. Turns out I was getting hardly any folate in my meals, not to mention iron, so by December I crashed as hard as anyone can – and ended up in a wheelchair for the last 10 weeks – lost a lot of muscle that I barely had -- plus a week in the hospital, and now in an adult group home. Not exactly what I’d planned for this year.

I’ve had this illness/disease/condition for 25+ years, and was able to go into remission a couple times early on, and semi-remission up until about 2005. But when I ran out of funds, stress went waaaay up – plus there were a few years of quacks – including Klinghardt’s 2nd in command as noted earlier – that contributed to the worsening, and kind of spooked me off of methylation…for about 7-8 years.

Still, after about a year or so of slow but steady improvement, by late 2021, I was able to walk/climb up to the 5th floor of my apartment building, walk around the perimeter, walk down the steps to the mailroom on the other side of the building, then back up to the 5th floor, and back down to my apartment on the 2nd floor. I could walk into stores or banks and stand in line without worrying when the pain and weakness would set in. Overall, a 70% improvement that lasted about six months.

The mistake I made was thinking I didn’t need the supplements anymore. So I took less of them, and also cut back too fast on the clonazepam I was taking…and here we are.

But despite the rather dire circumstances, I know I can get better. Certainly not as fast as I’d like, but I have no other choice. The ulcer/wound on my foot has healed, and just yesterday I walked 15 feet with a walker for the first time in 10 weeks, something I couldn’t have done even a month ago. Still iron deficient, so a lot of restless legs and lack of sleep, but I’m committed to turning this around.

Aren’t you glad you asked? 😊

Anyway, I mention this only to counter the reports or studies that say “Only 5% recover”, or “if you’ve been sick for more than 5 years”, you might as well just give up, or something to that effect. There are many like me – many on this forum -- who’ve been sick for decades who have gotten better. Maybe not 100%, but better enough to live a more normal life.

Regarding your son: I guess that makes sense to try Igenex if he tested positive w/the Western Blot. I know -- believe me I know -- it can be overwhelming to sort through various treatments, protocols, this supp or that. What I learned to do is to look for studies on Pubmed or other journals that back up a particular nutrient's benefits -- be it vitamin, mineral, an amino acid, a probiotic, prebiotic, etc.. It doesn't have to be a study about lyme's or ME/CFS, although that can be a plus.

I'll pm you with a couple extra thoughts.
You truly have been on a very grueling journey. I appreciate so much you sharing your story with me. I’m encouraged to hear you have had some remissions and even now are gaining back some of your energy despite all the hardships. You’re quite amazing for all you’ve been through. Thank you for the recommendations and information you shared. I do hope you get rest and continue to gain healing. Wishing you all the best!