Thoughts on you are not the body

[Davsey27]

What are your thoughts on this?

Some individuals reccomend creating space between yourself and the conditon

I try and think of this philosophically but from experience find it difficult to see things from a non duality realm

When i was a child in the middle of sleep I could feel the flu coming on while I was asleep.I had no choice as it felt like the flu sensations were me not a separate entity.

I didn't have a chance to separate it since it already manifested.I could be mistaken but it seems to me that I am the body,brain,mind and there doesn't seem to be a separate self when it comes to these conditions

I could be misperceiving this but typically it seems theres not much choice

 

[Judee]

I honestly am starting to think this mind over body stuff is a cult in itself. It asks us to do the impossible and then condemns us when we fail.

@Davsey27, sickness is real and happens to bodies. Please don't feel badly that you were not able to separate the feelings from yourself. Our bodies were made to go on defensive and when you got exposed to the flu, it was doing what it was suppose to in order to help you to survive.

Please realize that a lot of people who go into the mental health profession do so because they have mental health issues themselves and rather than get their own lives in order they sit in the seat of judgement towards us and unfortunately, it's an industry so they have a lot of peers willing to nod the head to what they are doing.

Trust your body. Be happy it gives your mind the cues it is suppose to. That's a blessing, not a curse.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I honestly am starting to think this mind over body stuff is a cult in itself. It asks us to do the impossible and then condemns us when we fail.

This is such an important- topic.

I spent four years- undertaking some philosophical work that was a bit focused on- not analyzing this illness, just setting it aside over there- as something I don't need and is not helpful. i did alot of internal mental work, sitting in a chair outside under a large tree, by the creek the babbling brook the soft sounds of birds. Low EMF.

(no, I have no special skill or asset here)...maybe I totally just never - pulled off something others find a way to pull off.

Well, ignoring the ME did not work to- reduce it, clear it, or remedy this mess.

One thing we know for sure- we are in a physical body currently. It has its limitations, rules, laws, physics. etc.

And I know the laws can be suspended. They don't always apply.

Something is wrong in the body here. It affects all the parts which include the area where we do our thinking and feeling. ANd maybe that is not: our essence. But alot of our physical selves at this time..is affected, its serious and so- well I stopped buying into the idea that I'm just not cosmic enough to shake this illness.

 

[wabi-sabi]

It's phrase I see come up in Buddhist psychology practices, along with "you are not your thoughts" or "you are not your mind". I have found these practices useful in the past, both for emotional balance and spiritual health.

However, as I get sicker it can feel more like spiritual crisis. ME/CFS robs me of my ability to meditate, as it has so many other things. This particular robbery forces me to see that the parts of me that I thought/felt where transcendent are really just neuro functions. As those neuro functions fail, I can feel those transcendent parts of me slipping away. I grieve them.

 

[Jyoti]

I observe an extremely complex relationship between mind and body. For years I went blithely along, dismissing my body's essential messages, pain, etc. I could see it for something transient, something that I wasn't inclined to let limit 'me.' 'Me' obviously being the transcendent, the eternal, the non-form! And then I got really sick and I have learned so much about who and what I am as a result.

we are in a physical body currently. It has its limitations, rules, laws, physics. etc.

So true....

On the one hand, I am also this body that works rather poorly now. It is undeniable, not only because the reality of the dysfunction, pain, confusion are so front and center--which totally hijacks everything else I might be a lot of the time, but because I get to watch the interaction between mind and body. It is amazing how quickly a small decline can become precipitous once I give it a little mental fuel. Suddenly I am at death's door, working through the emotions of leaving my daughter behind, bidding all I have loved a silent adieu.

I also get to see, on the other hand, how I am not this only suffering body. When I am conscious, I can take a small episode and hold it as just that, my body struggling. I find that if I am able to remember and send whatever hurts or isn't working love and light, it is simply easier to bear. It doesn't change the physical--because that IS real, as @Judee says. But I don't get sucked into the evil vortex of the physical suffering.

Like @Rufous McKinney and @wabi-sabi and so many others here, I have tried to implement really powerful tools (along with denial and other less useful routes) to diminish the physical symptoms. To little or no avail. But I have, in the last year or so, been able to remember that I am both body and mind and heart and soul. And that helps a bit....

 

[pamojja]

Some individuals reccomend creating space between yourself and the conditon

I try and think of this philosophically but from experience find it difficult to see things from a non duality realm

The space is between what observes, and what is observed. Which could be bodily sensations, feelings, thougths or conciousness itself. The Moment you think of it (philosophical or any other way), you have quit the observation, but identified with the object of Observation. Also thinking you are the observer, is just another thought to be observed, not identified with. Only way back is back to Observation.

However, that is all very advanced, and rarely works out for a beginner. Which starts with something less difficult not to identify with. Like the in- and out-breath. And under guidance of someone experienced.

Also unter no circumstance even for a moment believe that such practice could alleviate suffering. It will one make on the opposite very intimate with it.

 

[wabi-sabi]

I also get to see, on the other hand, how I am not this only suffering body. When I am conscious, I can take a small episode and hold it as just that, my body struggling. I find that if I am able to remember and send whatever hurts or isn't working love and light, it is simply easier to bear. It doesn't change the physical--because that IS real,

I love how you put this- it so mirrors my own experience, when I am able to step back from the emotional anguish and just observe. Some days I am better at this than others.

 

[Abrin]

Also unter no circumstance even for a moment believe that such practice could alleviate suffering. It will one make on the opposite very intimate with it.

Well said.

 

[pamojja]

I didn't have a chance to separate it since it already manifested.I could be mistaken but it seems to me that I am the body,brain,mind and there doesn't seem to be a separate self when it comes to these conditions

The thoughts I, me, mine are so deeply ingrained. Really difficult to watch from outside. Much easier, with the in-breath present, while the former out-breath already gone. Next out-breath present, while the former in-breath already gone. Where it really becomes hard to maintain, something so momentarily coming and going could be anything taken in possesion.

With very advanced practice watching all those I, me and mine thoughts arise and instantaniously pass, one's claiming them (usually already gone, but the next already arisen) is seen as similiarly futile.

I could be misperceiving this but typically it seems theres not much choice

With I, me, and mine suppositions, there isn't much choice, but to resist the unpleasant, and at the same time seeking anything pleasant.

Therefore this observation is sometimes also called choiceless awareness. No experience rejected or hold on to.

What than can happens is that all those traumas long surpressed flood one's consciousness. Which really takes a lot of stamina not to be blown away. Therefore many fails in this meditation are usually self-protecting mechanisms, for not loosing one's mind.

Only with years of building up the stamina in choiceless awareness in the at times frustrating experience waching for hours the inbreath and outbreath for example only, it can lead to success.

There are of course exceptional personalities, but there are also many cases where a first stringent 10-day vipassana retreat ended straight in the psychiatry. If there is any deep trauma, it has no choice but to show up.

 

[pamojja]

When i was a child in the middle of sleep I could feel the flu coming on while I was asleep.I had no choice as it felt like the flu sensations were me not a separate entity.

Just think twice, if that sensations where you, wouldn't you since long have gone?

 

[maddietod]

You start this wonderful discussion with: "Some individuals recommend creating space between yourself and the condition." This is exactly the practice. I experience, say, inability to walk to the library to get my books. I can spin off into anger at this limitation, frustration that I have nothing to read, further frustration that I can't drive, self-pity about the whole mess, and on and on. Or I can create space around this new development and go OK, how do I work with this? Suddenly I'm just here in this moment with a life circumstance. I get to choose to deal with it skillfully, or I can tumble into familiar patterns. In this sense, this illness is not me.

It's not that the pain will go away, or the illness will resolve, although maybe I will be able to walk to the library tomorrow.....who knows? It's that I remember to observe this unpleasant event - that's the "space" - and make choices about how I react to it.

 

[wabi-sabi]

There are of course exceptional personalities, but there are also many cases where a first stringent 10-day vipassana retreat ended straight in the psychiatry. If there is any deep trauma, it has no choice but to show up.

Yes, it's quite true that mindfulness meditation is not universally beneficial. Especially people with PTSD or other trauma conditions may find that mindfulness meditation makes it worse. Brown University has a meditation safety toolbox that explains about this if you are interested.

 

[wabi-sabi]

It's that I remember to observe this unpleasant event - that's the "space" - and make choices about how I react to it.

Isn't that the truth. Sometimes choosing how to react feels like the only choice with this illness.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

All this is tied to the concept that- all we can really change is: our relationship to the thing in question. This is where we have great power to choose- how we. view The Thing. And how we then- respond to- these challenges. Which are in fact endless opportunities.

Or I can create space around this new development and go OK, how do I work with this? Suddenly I'm just here in this moment with a life circumstance. I get to choose to deal with it skillfully, or I can tumble into familiar patterns. In this sense, this illness is not me.

Really nicely said!

 

[percyval577]

Some individuals reccomend creating space between yourself and the conditon

I try and think of this philosophically but from experience find it difficult to see things from a non duality realm.

Creating some space might have helped me mentally, but it hasn´t helped with any symptoms.

I think also that the duality is not an absolute one, or in other words, it is at least intertwined. In my opinion it may be that the soul is not the body, and even that the soul is in a way made of eternity, but also true is, in my opinion, that the soul in this shape I am depends on the body. It is difficult to think further, of course.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

So when non-normal events transpire- where do we put them?

Consider- the out of body experience. Something- is capable of floating above the physical body and observing that is YOU, lying there a mess on the freeway, a mess on the operating table.

this happened to my Father In Law. All quite matter of factly. The San Francisco Bay Bridge. Kaboom.

Did he become a really spiritual person after this intense experience? No, not really.

So some of us- seem not capable of ever seeing such an experience as: clarifying and reassuring somehow.

But maybe somewhere in side- he did truely integrate the experience, but kept it to himself.

Another from the generation of: why talk about- all that. Tell a joke instead.

 

[Wolfcub]

I have had out-of-body experiences in full normal conscious awareness, and have found in my own experience, that physical symptoms are absolutely left behind in that state. Like stepping out of an uncomfortable pair of shoes.

Once (2012) I had a nerve inflammation which caused pain and a temporary paralysis in my right hand, and great weakness in my right arm. I went out-of-body during that, and immediately noticed that the hand and arm worked perfectly well while out of the physical body. I spent some time grinning "out there" and flexing my happy hand!

I met a deceased loved one once while out, and noticed that they had no signs whatsoever of their last illness, though their form was exactly as I had always known them, and very very tangible and WARM to my touch!

N.B. I have to add, that these were neither hallucinations nor dreams.

 

[Davsey27]

Interesting I had one today

After taking half a valtrex and 1500mg of lysine in the
.
morning.I started feeling cold,weak and confused

I think valtrex does something to the brain in a not

good way.I dont get the same side effect from

immunovir

Took 2mg of Klonopin and seemed to feel better

Seems that these antivirals that target ebv should

make you feel better but many times makes me feel

More poisoned

I even try antivirals like selenium and nac and feel

worse at times.Seems like a sick body doesn't like

A wide variety of pils

 

[heapsreal]

Cfsme is a real mind F. Many times you think to yourself that you cant be this sick etc and its frustrating and always will be i guess. Easy to say but hard to do and that is to just roll with it. When feeling crappy just go with feeling like a vegetable, maybe find low energy distractions like reruns of an old tv show etc where you dont have to think. But remind yourself its ok to feel like crap. Then days where you feel better, take advantage of it and do a few things. Then theres days you have with your head under a pillow, you feel like shit and your brain is in a scramble that you can even feel frustrated. You just feel shithouse in the moment. Then its handy to have some good drugs on hand and take a valium or something that helps you to rest with the inner shit storm going on. Eventually you get through the other side.

 

[Mouse girl]

Couldn't read all the replies yet due to being too sick. But, very interesting topic and posts so far.

Well, the mind is the body, of course since our mind is in our brain which is part of out body. There are alot of myths about "healing" and such that tend to do more harm than good. I ignore my illness as much as I can just to function and it has no effect on my health. My body doesn't care what my thoughts are, it's doing it's own thing. Now, my mind being effected by my body, I do get anxiety and depression from being so sick at times which effects my thoughts. So, yes, the body effects thoughts but thoughts don't effect the body to me. Not sure i'm being super clear because I"m fogged. And it's a bit more complex than my simple words here, but just be kind to yourself, you're going through so much. Do what works for you at the time and throw out what doesn't work or help you feel better physically or emotionally, I say. Take good care everyone!