Thiamin messed me up badly...

[Big]

About 3 weeks ago I decided to try some thiamin. At the time I was not on any other supplements although I've taken various methylation supplements in the past.

Within a few minutes of taking the thiamin (only about 30mg) I was hit by a very relaxing feeling which was pretty nice. However as the day progressed I started to feel very sleepy and fatigued and I was starting to feel hypotensive as well.

The following day the fatigue and hypotension were severe along with my feet feeling incredibly cold. I started to have nausea and diarrhea from my BP dropping so low. I had to resort to taking florinef and hydrocortisone but that barely touched it.

I decided I would take some methylation supps because those usually do a good job of increasing my BP some. To my surprise anything at all that increases methylation makes all of these symptoms WORSE in a BIG way.

Since that day I've been ill every day with fatigue and hypotension and feeling tired all day long. It's horrible. Nothing I do reverses this. What on Earth happened?

The only thing I can come up with is that thiamin boosts GABA and the feelings I'm having do seem somewhat similar to when I took too much of a GABA supplement. My other theory is that thiamine increased nitric oxide or possibly acetylcholine...but to last for 3+ weeks?

Any ideas on what I can do to stop this or what is causing it?

 

[PeterPositive]

I have no idea... there are so many variables.
What I can say is that in general B vitamins work well together and just pushing one of them is more likely to cause side effects, especially if you're already out of balance.

Add to the picture the hyper-sensitivity which most people here has...

You said "only 30mg" but that's a megadose, considering the RDA of ~1.3mg. Most folks here, myself included, are super sensitive to high dose of anything.

All I can recommend is... whenever you want to experiment with something (herbs, vitamins, drugs...) check what is the standard dosage and cut it in (at least) 2 or 3. Maybe the first doses will not give you any apparent benefits but you'll avoid all of the crazy reactions.

If all goes well you'll be able to increase the dosage over the course of a few weeks (or months) and see what benefits you get, or drop it if it's causing problems.

Easy and patient.... is the way

cheers

 

[Big]

I have no idea... there are so many variables.
What I can say is that in general B vitamins work well together and just pushing one of them is more likely to cause side effects, especially if you're already out of balance.

Add to the picture the hyper-sensitivity which most people here has...

You said "only 30mg" but that's a megadose, considering the RDA of ~1.3mg. Most folks here, myself included, are super sensitive to high dose of anything.

All I can recommend is... whenever you want to experiment with something (herbs, vitamins, drugs...) check what is the standard dosage and cut it in (at least) 2 or 3. Maybe the first doses will not give you any apparent benefits but you'll avoid all of the crazy reactions.

If all goes well you'll be able to increase the dosage over the course of a few weeks (or months) and see what benefits you get, or drop it if it's causing problems.

Easy and patient.... is the way

cheers

I'm usually way more careful. I guess I've just never really heard of any negative thiamin stories and the pills were like 250mg so I figured a small piece (I'm estimating 30mg but it was probably even less) wouldn't be an issue.

 

[PeterPositive]

I'm usually way more careful. I guess I've just never really heard of any negative thiamin stories and the pills were like 250mg so I figured a small piece (I'm estimating 30mg but it was probably even less) wouldn't be an issue.

I know. I had a bad experience with B1 too, about 5 years ago.
I was quite desperate and had a 50mg B1 supplement at home. I cut it in half but it was too strong. Killed me for 2-3 days. At the time I was reacting badly to everything.

A healthy subject would certainly not have any issue with 50mg ... although megadoses such as 250mg or more can affect healthy people as well. I find it quite silly to swallow 1000s of times the RDA out of the blue... without having tried it before at normal dosages.

There aspect of "tolerance building" should be factored in. These days I can take a 5000mcg B12 supplement without issue. Definitely a megadose, and it helps me.
Had I done the same 3 years ago I'd have ended up at the ER with a panic attack, as I used to get lots of anxiety and even tremors with just a small fraction of that amount.

Same thing with zinc... which I need in megadoses, but when I started even a low dose of 2-3mg would kick my stomach very badly...

I have learned my lessons...

 

[Mary]

About 3 weeks ago I decided to try some thiamin. At the time I was not on any other supplements although I've taken various methylation supplements in the past.

Within a few minutes of taking the thiamin (only about 30mg) I was hit by a very relaxing feeling which was pretty nice. However as the day progressed I started to feel very sleepy and fatigued and I was starting to feel hypotensive as well.

The following day the fatigue and hypotension were severe along with my feet feeling incredibly cold. I started to have nausea and diarrhea from my BP dropping so low. I had to resort to taking florinef and hydrocortisone but that barely touched it.

I decided I would take some methylation supps because those usually do a good job of increasing my BP some. To my surprise anything at all that increases methylation makes all of these symptoms WORSE in a BIG way.

Since that day I've been ill every day with fatigue and hypotension and feeling tired all day long. It's horrible. Nothing I do reverses this. What on Earth happened?

The only thing I can come up with is that thiamin boosts GABA and the feelings I'm having do seem somewhat similar to when I took too much of a GABA supplement. My other theory is that thiamine increased nitric oxide or possibly acetylcholine...but to last for 3+ weeks?

Any ideas on what I can do to stop this or what is causing it?

A couple of things come to mind. First, I reacted very strongly to what I also thought was a low dose of B1 - 50 mg. or so - but had the opposite reaction - it sort of revved me up and raised my BP. I've been taking a B complex forever and never had that reaction. I've since been playing with my B1 dose and seem to be developing a tolerance, BP is going back to normal, am hoping for increased energy which it gave me for awhile.

But - of course - we are all different, and B1 usually is known for lowering BP, not raising it. I do think it's unusual that your reaction would last for 3 weeks with no sign of abating, and it makes me wonder if something else is going on.

I'm wondering about your adrenals, your symptoms could point to adrenal insufficiency or weakness and the fact that you have florinef and hydrocortisone on hand indicate you have had adrenal problems. You sound very much like I did when my adrenals were wiped out, with horrible unrelenting fatigue. I don't know how or if thiamine could play any role in this and it just may be coincidental that your initial reaction to thiamine segued into adrenal problems.

A competent chiropractor who does muscle testing helped me with my adrenals - gave me an adrenal glandular by Standard Process - Drenatrophin PMG - within a couple of days my energy started coming back. I had to take about 3 times the recommended dose because my adrenals were so weak. I don't think a lower dose would have helped, and muscle testing indicated the dose I needed, and it worked.

Why aren't you taking any supplements? I think in general it's good to take a low dose B complex, and then add in extra Bs as warranted, very slowly and very carefully. With weak adrenals I think at the least you would need extra pantothenic acid.

And maybe it's not your adrenals, but it sure sounds like it. One more thing - have you tried taking salt? Low BP goes along with adrenal issues and many people have to take salt to keep their BP where it should be.

 

[Little Bluestem]

Same thing with zinc... which I need in megadoses, but when I started even a low dose of 2-3mg would kick my stomach very badly...

What form of zinc are you taking? Zinc oxide is the worst.

 

[PeterPositive]

What form of zinc are you taking? Zinc oxide is the worst.

I take zinc picolinate or Opti-zinc (zinc-methionine). Never tried Zn-oxide, but I say away from oxide forms of any minerals as they don't absorb too well and when the O2 is liberated in the stomach it causes belching

 

[sregan]

There are some people for whom B1 is a savior. You might be one of those people if you had such a strong reaction to it. You may need to start with a very small dose and work up from there. You might also try Co-enzymated (or Active) B1 instead. You'll also need to find out what you might deplete as you take higher doses of B1. Many of the B vitamins are dependent on other B vitamins.

I posted this article from ProHealth a while back on B1/Thiamine that might interest you.

Also this article mentions some co-factors for B1 in phase-2 liver detox

Conjugation of toxins with acetyl-CoA is the primary method by which the body eliminates sulfa drugs. This system appears to be especially sensitive to genetic variation, with those having a poor acetylation system being far more susceptible to sulfa drugs and other antibiotics. While not much is known about how to directly improve the activity of this system, it is known that acetylation is dependent on thiamine, pantothenic acid, and vitamin C.

 

[Gondwanaland]

The following day the fatigue and hypotension were severe along with my feet feeling incredibly cold. I started to have nausea and diarrhea from my BP dropping so low.

Hypoglycemia

 

[Mary]

@Big - I woke up thinking about you this morning (my brain works while I'm asleep! ) Anyways, I think it's possible that instead of adrenal issues I wrote about above, you might have low potassium. It can cause all your symptoms, including the nausea and low blood pressure. Ordinarily low potassium is associated with high blood pressure, but I found some links where low BP can be due to low potassium. http://www.emedicinehealth.com/low_potassium/page3_em.htm

Taking thiamine increased my need for potassium quite a bit. Also, when I first started methylfolate, my potassium levels tanked rather quickly, because the methylfolate increased my need for potassium quite a bit as cells started to divide and behave the way they should.

Severe fatigue was my number one symptom from low potassium. If you haven't already, you should read some of Freddd's posts where he writes about low potassium and methylation.

When a person starts taking potassium, they need to titrate up gradually, not a huge amount all at once. e.g., you could try 200 mg. every 4 hours or so until low potassium symptoms abate. If this is your issue, you should know within a day or 2 because you will start feeling better if low potassium is your problem.

I currently take about 1000 mg. of potassium (in divided doses) daily, plus 1 or 2 glasses of low sodium V8. Low sodium V-8 has 900 mg. of potassium. I seem to need a lot of potassium, and a lot of us do.

 

[sregan]

When a person starts taking potassium, they need to titrate up gradually, not a huge amount all at once. e.g., you could try 200 mg. every 4 hours or so until low potassium symptoms abate. If this is your issue, you should know within a day or 2 because you will start feeling better if low potassium is your problem.

I currently take about 1000 mg. of potassium (in divided doses) daily, plus 1 or 2 glasses of low sodium V8. Low sodium V-8 has 900 mg. of potassium. I seem to need a lot of potassium, and a lot of us do.

Mary, I just posted a new thread where I ask how do you know when you are in your "sweet spot" when taking potassium. Do you have certain "tell tale" symptoms that let you know when you are low or high?

You mention fatigue for low potassium. I have experienced that also. Any other high or low symptoms you can share?

 

[Mary]

@sregan - I've often wished we had a simple test for low potassium that could be done at home! In lieu of that, I go by symptoms - for me, as I said above, it's primarily fatigue, sometimes quite severe. I also tend to get achey muscles and sometimes muscle spasms, particularly in my legs. My sister gets leg cramps at night from low potassium.

Many people get cardiac symptoms (but I haven't) - palpitations, irregular heartbeat.

One symptom that may be common is constipation, though I don't experience that (the opposite, if anything )

There are lots of articles about low potassium symptoms, see the one above, and here's another one: http://www.livestrong.com/article/24100-signs-symptoms-low-potassium/

If I'm dealing with low potassium, my symptoms usually get much better relatively quickly, within a day or so, when I increase my potassium intake, so that's how I know if that's what's going on. As I'm sure you know there are several different kinds of fatigue associated with CFS/ME, so it's trial and error for me. If I'm extra tired with achy muscles, I pretty much assume my potassium has tanked again and I up my intake with a combination of potassium gluconate (300 mg., 3 times a day generally) plus low-sodium V8. The low sodium V8 works for me because of low calories.

as far as high potassium goes, I think it's rather difficult to get high potassium levels, unless your kidneys don't work properly. But it is important not to take a huge dose all at once - that could cause difficulties.