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Supplements for probiotics, DHEA, immune and energy - looking for recommendations

Messages
63
Any recommendations on supplements for the following?

- immune repair/booster
- DHEA
- probiotics (mitochondria focus)
- energy (not simple caffeine pills, I keep my caffeine intake to very little intentionally these days)

Thanks
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,679
Location
Alberta
For an immunostimulant, you could try elderberries. They make my ME much worse, which I assume is via making my immune system produce more cytokines, which further activate glial cells and produce nasty kynurenines. Why you'd want to do that, unless you really want to fight a virus, I'm not sure.
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,334
Location
Southern California
Hi @DoubleBubble - here are some things that have helped me:

Andrographis - immune modulator - I believe it helped raise my NK cell function and also has helped with numerous sinus infections

For energy:

branched chain amino acids - these cut my PEM recovery time by more than half. I take about 6000 - 7000 mg a day. @ljimbo423 takes 10000 - 13000 mg a day (I forget exactly how much!) and they have helped him a lot, not just with PEM

thiamine (B1) - gave me a very nice boost in energy for 1 or 2 days, and then was hit with severe fatigue, which was from my phosphorous tanking due to refeeding syndrome. I discovered this through trial and error. In any event, drinking lots of kefir (high in phosphorous) and later switching to a monosodium phosphate supplement took care of the fatigue and I was able to happily keep taking thiamine. I take the phosphate 2 - 3 times a week.

P-5-P (bioavailable form of B6) - Nutreval testing showed a severe deficiency despite having taken a B complex for many years. So when I added in B6, I had a noticeable boost in energy, though not as dramatic as thiamine did for me.

methylfolate - I'd taken methylcobalamin for many years without noticing any benefit When I added in methylfolate, within 1 or 2 days I felt better than I had in years, and then a day or two later was hit with severe fatigue, this time due to my potassium taking (thanks to Freddd's posts so I knew what was happening). I started a potassium supplement, titrated up to 1000 mg a day in divided doses, and this fatigue went away and I've been able to keep taking methylfolate

methylcobalamin - I'd been taking it for years, even pre-ME/CFS, but didn't notice anything until I worked up to 10,000 mcg. a day (two 5,000 mcg doses) of liquid sublingual methylcobalamin, and then felt a slight boost in energy

Many people swear by CoQ10 though I never really feel any different taking it. Actually one time I did. Someone had posted that grapefruit juice had helped with utilization of CoQ10, so I gave it a try and was drinking at least 16 ounces a day, and sure enough, had a nice boost in energy, which slowly ebbed away, and finally I was more tired than ever. After a lot of sleuthing I found one source which said the grapefruit juice could interfere with B12. Sure enough, I stopped the grapefruit juice, increased my B12 for several days or a week, and my energy came back. So I think it's worth experimenting with but you have to be on the lookout for this reaction.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
- immune repair/booster
Hi @DoubleBubble
For immune repair and normalizing (it's very difficult to boost your immune system exogenously, and probably not a great idea, particularly in view of COVID), I've found pine bark to be incredibly helpful in trms of repairing and protecting it.


There are a lot of options, most of them incredibly expensive. The one I've ben using since early this year is both well-reviewed and regarded, and in the lower range, cost wise. Her's a link to Amazon, which also has the best price. If you want to trial it first, it comes in an even less expensive 90 cap version. The one below is 180 vegetarian caps:

Moducare Daily Immune Support, Plant Sterol Dietary Supplement, 180 vegetarian capsules
https://www.amazon.com/Moducare-Capsules-Nutritional-Supplement-Vegetarians/dp/B00DKFE25G


As for probiotics, people pop them like candy, but if you take the wrong strains and genuses, you can really screw with your micro biome, so you might want to do a quick google and find out which individual forms do what before you commit to anything.

I'd especially avoid the large number of multi-strain products that a lot of companies put out, probably on the theory that if they include enough different strains, something's bound to work. Or not. Either way, they'll have your money, and you may wind up with a seriously disturbed gut.

I do find that CoQ10 helps in a sort of gradual, gentle way. I use Now Foods 60 mg capsules, and take from 2 to 3, 1x a day.
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,679
Location
Alberta
Yeah, if they're French Maritime Pines,

Darn, just jackpine lodgepole pines here. Even the beavers don't chew on them.

Just a quick check showed that pine barks in general contain proanthocyanidins, which are also found in blueberries and various other fruits and plant bits. It may be that only French Maritime Pines have actual health studies that marketers can use, and a product that someone bothered to invest money in the approval process for, even though other pine species might be superior.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
Whatever.

Human consumption of pine bark dates back thousands of years ago, and the first commercial pine bark extract was patented in 1948 by Dr. Jacques Masquelier from France, not a period known for heavy mainstream promotional campaigns or techniques. It's been a staple in many European households for its many benefits, extending well beyond simple proanthrocyanidins, which are available in larger concentrations in pine bark extract, as well as being more bioavailable.

Along with its potent antioxidant support, it also provides support for blood flow, blood pressure, blood sugar, immunity, inflammation, brain function and skin support.

Here are a few links to more info for you, since you seem to have barely skimmed the surface for the purpose of debunking, a worthy occupation in a world filled with bullshit and sales pitches based largely on generating maximum income from minimum benefits.

Pine Bark Extract: A Naturally Potent Antioxidant
https://monq.com/eo/nootropics/pine-bark-extract-naturally-potent-antioxidant/

Pine Bark Extracts: Nutraceutical, Pharmacological and Toxicological Evaluation
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Pharmacological_and_Toxicological_Evaluation

Pharmaceutical and nutraceutical effects of Pinus pinaster bark extract
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3203267/

But, hey !!! You do you, yes?
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,679
Location
Alberta
Here are a few links to more info for you, since you seem to have barely skimmed the surface for the purpose of debunking,

I wasn't debunking the possible health effects of pine bark. I was just pointing out that it's probably not limited to that one species of pine. If that's the only one marketed, it's probably because of the paperwork and financial investment in getting regulatory approval.

I'm not tempted to try tea from my own pines, since I haven't had any good experiences with other antioxidants, so new ones aren't high on my list of 'it might work'. I expect my pine bark tastes pretty awful.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
I wasn't debunking the possible health effects of pine bark. I was just pointing out that it's probably not limited to that one species of pine.
Aha !!!


OK, gotcha. I did misinterpret your meaning, probably because I'm a sad, crabby, Christmas-y mess right now.
If that's the only one marketed, it's probably because of the paperwork and financial investment in getting regulatory approval.
Actually, there are several differnt strains of pine, with French maritime pine having probably the most research, since it's been around since 1948 or so, at least in its most recent public form. Pine bark has been used for several thousamd years by indigenous peoples, and even Greeks and Romans ....


The different kinds have somewhat different benefits, or focii. I'll have to go back to my scattered notes to remind myself which one is particularly potent for brain repair and cognitive function. Radixia?
I expect my pine bark tastes pretty awful.
Yeah. Not known for overall tastiness, altho it is used in various concoctions, including perfumes and candies and other goods for it's slightly citrusy, piney astringency. But the splinters are a bitch ...


PS ... At least one of the links I posted deals with several different kinds of pine bark. I think a blend of pine barks would probably be good, since they all are proanthocyanidin-heavy, and they each could bring something different and beneficial to the table ....
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,679
Location
Alberta
One thing in the links caught my attention: the recommended dosage for the extract was 500 to 1000 mg a day. That seems pretty large to me. I'm pretty sure you're not going to get the equivalent by putting some bark in hot water. If they're quoting historical anecdotal evidence (The pilgrims drank pine bark tea, so it must have been effective!), it's probably not the proanthocyanidins responsible. Maybe the VitC in pine bark tea is high enough to make a difference.

High-dosage antioxidants may not be harmless (there was a thread on that earlier), so I won't be seeking out pine bark extracts.
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,679
Location
Alberta
I recommended elderberries earlier. I recently took some to hopefully help with what might have been a lingering viral infection. Three days of the elderberry gummies (they had VitC and zinc) seems to have solved that problem. No guarantees, but if you have what you think is a lingering viral infection, elderberries seem to be worth trying. For me, it seems to have been $20 well-spent.

I disliked the zinc content, so next time I need to buy an elderberry product, I think I'll look for a small bottle of Sambuca made from elderberries.