Study: DHT Stimulates XMRV by 3-fold

Messages
26
Likes
4
Location
Perth Australia/NC USA
High T

My free and bound androgens routinely test a few points higher than most people's. I've even been asked on one occasion if i used exogenous testosterone, which i had not. I have noticed one thing for sure, after many years of having the waxing and waning symptoms of CFS. When I'm going through a severe period I have very very oily skin. I've always noticed the connection. I have assumed it may be part of immune activation or HPA axis activation (with increased output of stress hormones) because androgens are not the only thing that can cause the sebacious glands to become hyperactive. I take low dose finasteride (blocks DHT) for its supposed hair loss prevention effects but don't think I noticed any improvement in my CFS while on the drug.

Edit: I took the finasteride at 1.5 mg a day for three years, and then stopped for a few years. Have recently started it again. It doesn't seem to do much at all for sebaceous activity.
 
Messages
90
Likes
8
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
We don't know nuttin

Since none of us trying to speculate on this actually know whether we have XMRV we are all trying to make connections from our widely ranging personal experience that may not even be about the virus. That said, I've noticed no difference in CFS symptoms from being on Avonex (a DHT blocker) for over a year, and noticed no improvements years ago when a doc had me try bio-identical testosterone cream.

It does make me think that the findings of low testosterone in both women and men CFS/ME patients could be from the body's attempt to minimize a stimulating agent for viral replication, just as macrophages sequester free iron to counter iron-using bacterial infections.

We have so little real data to discuss that, like everyone here, I find myself jumping at every drib and drab that comes out trying to see if it fits me, makes sense, correlates with anything else. Waiting for a bigger picture is agonizing.
 

rebecca1995

Apple, anyone?
Messages
378
Likes
232
Location
Northeastern US
Dr. Luckett has a new blog post on this very topic:

http://cfidsresearch.blogspot.com/2009/12/male-cfs-patients-may-have-option.html

Tuesday, December 8, 2009
Male CFS Patients May Have Option
In recent studies, it has been shown that DHT (dihydrotestosterone) increases XMRV replication rate threefold. This is not surprising, considering that a number of prostate drugs target this very hormone. Testosterone is metabolized to DHT, which is more powerful - but it is also implicated in pattern baldness, prostate problems, and excess body hair. Some drugs such as Casodex and Flutamide will block DHT at its receptor, however they will result in impaired fertility, loss of libido, and feminization effects, as testosterone is necessary to mitigate the effects of estrogen.

On the other hand, blocking the conversion of Testosterone to DHT should result in a significant drop in viral replication rate. There are 2 very safe drugs that I can think of that can attain this effect: Avodart (dutasteride), and Proscar (available as Propecia in a lower dosage form). A threefold drop in viral replication rate could have a significant effect on symptoms of ME/CFS - It is my opinion that at a certain threshold, the immune system is capable of keeping XMRV in check, hence why XMRV is found in a small number of healthy controls. I would like to see a clinical trial enrolling male patients to test this hypothesis. The effects of these drugs have negligible effects on male fertility - treatment will only produce mild reductions in sperm count averaging 6%. Serum testosterone increased considerably, which is necessary for muscle protein synthesis, regulating the hypothalamus-pituitary axis, and increasing mental and physical energy - all things ME/CFS, Fibromyalgia, and Gulf War Syndrome patients could stand to benefit from.
 

Alesh

Senior Member
Messages
184
Likes
15
Location
Czech Republic, EU
My experience with androgens is totally opposite. One of three drugs that probably most helped me is oxandrolone, an AAS. I don't know what is the explanation. 1. AAS like oxandrolone are given to patients with chronic viral infection, most notably in AIDS related waisting in which AAS reverse the effect of myostatin threby enhancing immunity, it is known that the degree of AIDS related waisting correlates positively with the severity of symptoms and negatively with the length of time period before death. 2. I was taking quite unusually high doses of oxandrolone for quite unusually long period of time, i.e., 100mg daily for 5 months, so the production of my endogenous testosterone was significantly suppressed and other physiological changes via negative feedback occurred. 3. It is possible that I no longer have active XMRV infection and what helped me were putatively neuroprotective and neuroregenerative effects of erythropoietin that was released from the kidney tissue during oxandrolone administration.

But yes I remember that in the first years of my CFS I had high occurrence of acne. I don't think it was caused by testosterone excess since I didn't observe any signs of anabolism. Now if I take testosterone I have no acne from it but quite substantial anabolism.
 

Alesh

Senior Member
Messages
184
Likes
15
Location
Czech Republic, EU
But I have to add that I have quite unusual experience with anabolic steroids that are considered to be "strong" in the anabolic steroids abusing community calling themselves bodybuilders. When I took few milligrams of oxymetholone for only two days I immediately got a flu-a normal flu, not the "brain flu" alias CFS. When the flu disappeared after about a week I repeated the same thing again, i.e., taking negligible dose of oxymetholone for just two days and again I got a common flu. I searched nearly the whole written legacy of steroid abusers deposited in the the internet :) to find some healthy steroid abuser with the same experience but I found none.
 
Messages
96
Likes
58
Alesh, I'm glad oxandrolone improved your condition. I believe you are still unwell, though? Proviron has less suppression issues, if you are interested.

The dichotomy of AAS on the immune system is only really shown by one paper.

Aromatizing Testosterone uses the aromatase enzymes to break down to estrogen, a necessary steroid for lipid control, erections etc.
These steroids immediately stimulate inflammatory cytokines, causing flu like symptoms, sometimes even in healthy individuals. Eventually they will push the body towards a proviral state due to supraphysiological doses of estrogen.

Pure testosterone tends to be wholly immunosuppressive, while DHT derivatives such as oxandrolone stimulate general immune upregulation.

Anadrol is a whole lot of steroid. It directly agonizes estrogen, that might explain the awful symptoms.

Sex differences: When you put constant stress on the adrenal glands, it causes the body to lower cortisol and raise DHEA. DHEA converts to pure estrogen in males.

The estrogen environment enhances viral activation while giving you, in general, a high powered immune system.

DHT also controls aldosterone secretion. An androgen blocker may decrease blood pressure, which may be low in CFS.

DHT blockers would decrease downstream estrogen, but might create paradoxical feminization due to DHT being an aromatase inhibitor!

(I can speculate too, I'm on a poker tournament break :D)
 

Alesh

Senior Member
Messages
184
Likes
15
Location
Czech Republic, EU
Thank you for the commentary, perovyscus,

yes, I am quite far from being healthy. It is something that baffles me most: Sometimes it seems that I am so close to recovery or to a path to recovery but than something nasty "activates" in my brain, it's metaphorically like a "brain inflammation" or "brain swelling" or "millions of ants in the brain" or "boiling of brain" that I tend to believe there is a persistent infection in my brain that reactivates on occasions. I know that people suffering from, e.g., MS also have attacks that are very similar to these CFS attacks even if MS is not generally considered to be primarily a neuroinfection but in MS typically after such an attack the general condition of a MS sufferer permanently deteriorates which is not the case in my illness.

As to the AAS I have tried Proviron, testosterone and also stanozolol. Stanozolol seemed to be even more effective than oxandrolone for me. I believe these compounds have very diverse effects on human body and I can't really tell why they as I believe have helped me. I will perhaps also try methandienone but one must be very careful. I also tried two other things from the "doping agents family", namely GHRP 6 and the human recombinant Erythropoietin as they are somewhat active sublingually or intranasally: marked deterioration and I don't dare to repeat these experiments :)