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Specific questions re heart rate monitoring

Messages
19
Hello,

I hope this is the right place to post this question. I recently bought a heart rate monitor to help with pacing, and I have a couple of specific questions.

My heart rate lying in bed after I wake up (resting heart rate) seems to be right around 70, but sometimes during the day I notice it going down quite a bit lower than that (like mid 50s), especially when sitting on public transit and even when standing and waiting for the bus. Is this common?

And this afternoon after lunch I took a nap, and noticed when I woke up (and was still in bed) that my heart rate was around 90. Is this from eating?

Also, I am thinking of having exercise testing to determine my anaerobic threshold. The place I contacted (a sport facility) calls it "lactate testing", which I gather is basically the same thing. Is this the test that people with CFS do to help avoid post-exertional malaise? Are there any certain values that I should make sure the test includes?
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
Hello,

I hope this is the right place to post this question. I recently bought a heart rate monitor to help with pacing, and I have a couple of specific questions.

My heart rate lying in bed after I wake up (resting heart rate) seems to be right around 70, but sometimes during the day I notice it going down quite a bit lower than that (like mid 50s), especially when sitting on public transit and even when standing and waiting for the bus. Is this common?

And this afternoon after lunch I took a nap, and noticed when I woke up (and was still in bed) that my heart rate was around 90. Is this from eating?

Also, I am thinking of having exercise testing to determine my anaerobic threshold. The place I contacted (a sport facility) calls it "lactate testing", which I gather is basically the same thing. Is this the test that people with CFS do to help avoid post-exertional malaise? Are there any certain values that I should make sure the test includes?


Hi,

I can't answer most of your questions above but I don't think the sport's facility's lactate testing would give you the same information as the kind of exercise testing members here have written about. Here is the gold standard: http://www.workwellfoundation.org/about-us/

Best wishes,
Sushi
 
Messages
19
I had a look at the link--very interesting. Unfortunately I can't travel there to take the test. Based on the checking around I did, the only testing I have access to here within my budget is the sports-oriented testing (just one session). The test I am thinking of doing ($200) will give me by V02max and lactate threshold (which is the same as anaerobic threshold). Are these parameters tested on the workwellfoundation test? I realize that their test is over 2 days. Is it the anaerobic threshold on the second day only that is used to set a limit on activity levels for pacing to reduce PEM?
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
I had a look at the link--very interesting. Unfortunately I can't travel there to take the test. Based on the checking around I did, the only testing I have access to here within my budget is the sports-oriented testing (just one session). The test I am thinking of doing ($200) will give me by V02max and lactate threshold (which is the same as anaerobic threshold). Are these parameters tested on the workwellfoundation test? I realize that their test is over 2 days. Is it the anaerobic threshold on the second day only that is used to set a limit on activity levels for pacing to reduce PEM?

This is certainly not the Workwell gold standard test, but is probably sufficient for your purpose which is to determine your AT. I suggest you don't test to maximum if all you want is your AT for HR monitoring purposes. If you stop at your AT you are much less likely to suffer serious PEM. If you go all the way to maximal exercise, you will almost certainly suffer serious PEM. You won't have the VO2max data, but you don't need it for HR monitoring.

If you need CPET data for disability or other documentory situation, then I don't think the test you are considering will be sufficient.

If you only need AT data, make sure you confirm with your tester that you want to stop at your AT. You won't be able to tell yourself when you've reached that point.

I have done the maximal exercise test and the test only to AT. I have not done the 2-day test. The test to AT was very much easier than the maximal test and gave the same AT result.

My experience is that I cannot function continuously near my AT, even if I stay below it. For continuous activity, housework or walking, I need to stay around 80-90% of my AT to avoid consequences. I can go up to my AT briefly during things like stair-climbing or showering without consequences, but for longer continuous activity I have to aim lower. Going over my AT for more than a minute or so will definitely PEM me, so it's a great place for me to have an alarm set on my HR monitor. Alarm goes off, I sit... no matter what.

It may be that the 2-day CPET would show a lower AT the second day which would be more accurate as a safe level for continuous activity. I just don't know enough to say.
 
Messages
19
Thanks so much for this information. I had asked the testing place about the VO2max because I thought it would be useful and it's only a bit more in terms of cost, but if it means I will have to exercise to max I definitely don't want to do it!
 

Little Bluestem

All Good Things Must Come to an End
Messages
4,930
I've got a heart monitoring question, so I will add it here.

I recently bought a pulse oximeter to monitor my heart rate. It seem to me that it goes high very easily and varies a lot. The problem is that I don't really know what normal heart function looks like. Is there any web site that gives 'normal' heart rates for various levels of activity or describes normal heart rate in general?
 

Shell

Senior Member
Messages
477
Location
England
I've got a heart monitoring question, so I will add it here.

I recently bought a pulse oximeter to monitor my heart rate. It seem to me that it goes high very easily and varies a lot. The problem is that I don't really know what normal heart function looks like. Is there any web site that gives 'normal' heart rates for various levels of activity or describes normal heart rate in general?

Can't think of a website just off hand but here's some basics:
A healthy person's resting HR is between 65 to 80ish. Athletes can have resting HR of 50 but that would be bradycardic in a "normal" person.
Resting HR of 90 + is a bit high. 100+ is tachycardic.
Running could get a healthy person's HR up to 140s but if it's 140 just because you stood up that's not healthy.

POTS is a raise in HR by 30 beats per minute within 5 to 10 minutes of standing or a HR of 120 + on standing.
IST is a resting HR of 100+ with spikes above 120 when upright. Most of us (without meds) hit HR way higher than that,

SATs should be 98 to 100. Low SATS are a pain in the bum but you can't usually get good treatment for that unless you are regularly below 88. Those with lungs that are shot are considered doing ok on SATS of 90 to 93. (It does't feel ok mind you).

Hope that's a bit of a help.
 

Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
Hi; I have been using a HR monitor for some time now--not all the time, but frequently. I am 80, but until various things (including of course ME) started up 8 years ago, was very active--resting HR ca. 55 or so. Could keep 145 for longish spells and feel fine. Now my resting HR is around 60-64; I find a brisk 8 min walk will raise it to around 94-98; I can then rest 4 mins and return at around the same HR, without triggering more than very slight short term (3 hours?) PEM I can also row for 1 min approx, which gets my HR to around 122, without serious PEM. If I go beyond those parameters, or pile activity upon activity, I trigger longer and more intense PEM.

Experience will show you the parameters within which you should remain--and doubtless a VO2 max test would give more accurate figures.
I also learned that the best way to trigger real PEM is to exercise again before you are fully recovered from the first bout; again, experience will show how long you have to wait. Exercise of course can mean anything from a marathon to preparing supper. The Monitor is a great learning tool. Chris
 
Messages
15,786
I've got a heart monitoring question, so I will add it here.

I recently bought a pulse oximeter to monitor my heart rate. It seem to me that it goes high very easily and varies a lot. The problem is that I don't really know what normal heart function looks like. Is there any web site that gives 'normal' heart rates for various levels of activity or describes normal heart rate in general?
You can see what your normal is when you're feeling (relatively) decent. A good time to check for that is when you've been laying down for a while, or soon after waking up (but not immediately when waking up). Generally I don't think there should be a lot of fluctuation from one moment to the next.

When my very healthy fiance uses it, his oxygen saturation is always 96% and his heart rate is around 65 to 70. These values stay very steady and do not fluctuate. When I use it, my saturation is either at 99 or my heart rate is rising to try to keep my saturation at 99%. When I've been too active, my oxygen saturation will constantly dip, then rise again as my heart rate rises, at which time my heart rate will slow down a bit and oxygen will dip again, followed by heart rate rising again. Over and over again for hours or days.
 

Little Bluestem

All Good Things Must Come to an End
Messages
4,930
Thanks all. My morning heart rate is in the upper 60s or occasionally low 70s, so I think I am good there. It doesn't take much to bring it up. Getting up and walking to the next room to answer the phone can take it to 110. It does come down to at least below 100 within a few minutes. I think the highest that I have seen it (that I believed) was 120. The instructions with the meter say that it may not work accurately when you are moving, so if I am wearing it while doing things and it really spikes, I assume it is an error.

I do not have any clock with a second hand, but I just now did about a ten second check while sitting at my computer. It ranged up and down between 83 to 87 in that time. It seems to change about once/second.

My saturation is usually 97 or 98. From the things I have read about possible poor blood flow to the brain in ME, I wonder if my brain is getting as much O2 as my finger.

Here is a way I have found to reduce my HR when lying or sitting still. It works less dependable when I am up and about.
I slowly take a deep breath, hold it about 3 seconds, then slowly exhale. My HR will drop 10 - 20, then start climbing back up. If I take another slow breath immediately, it makes no difference. If I wait a minute or two and do it again, it drop lower than the first time and come back up less high. Doing this 3 or 4 times will drop my HR 5 - 10.
I did it 4 times while I was writing this and my HR is now ranging 78 - 80 in about 10 seconds.
 

DoggerFisher

Senior Member
Messages
152
I'm adding to an old thread here (to prove I've read it!) before I ask:
  • HRM is it worth it?!
  • What's the cheapest device that will do what I need to do? My pulse is so weak as to be undetectable most of the time
  • Why does my brain hurt when I read about what i need to do to work it out?!
For context I walk my dog (pictured) twice a day - sometimes that is relatively easy, other days a massive struggle, just inline with how I am overall rather than as a result of overexertion. Cognitive problems affect me far more really. CAn you raise HR by thinking / prevent PEM caused by brain activity with a HRM?

Yrs stupidly.....
 

Pyrrhus

Senior Member
Messages
4,172
Location
U.S., Earth
There was a Facebook group for those who pace their activities with a heart rate monitor. Although it doesn't seem to be active anymore, there might be some helpful information archived there:

If anyone has recommendations re. brand of heart monitor, would you mind adding to a file I created on the Facebook group ME/CFS - Pacing with a Heart Monitor - https://www.facebook.com/groups/ME.CFS.HRM/. Would be very helpful to those of us new to this technique.
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,335
Location
Southern California
@Pyrrhus - two days ago HealthRising had a very interesting article re HR monitoring and HRV (heart rate variabillity) monitoring - the two are different things. I never thought a monitor could be this helpful but am rethinking this in light of this article: How Hannah Finally, Finally Learned How to Pace – and How it Helped - Health Rising

I'm going to do a separate post about this because for the first time I've become seriously interested in a HR and HRV monitor!
 

Pyrrhus

Senior Member
Messages
4,172
Location
U.S., Earth
@Pyrrhus - two days ago HealthRising had a very interesting article re HR monitoring and HRV (heart rate variabillity) monitoring - the two are different things. I never thought a monitor could be this helpful but am rethinking this in light of this article: How Hannah Finally, Finally Learned How to Pace – and How it Helped - Health Rising

I'm going to do a separate post about this because for the first time I've become seriously interested in a HR and HRV monitor!

I gave my old Fitbit to my 85-year old mother, thinking she would get frustrated with it and just throw it out, as she has done with many other technical gadgets.

But now she's become addicted to it and is constantly checking her heart rate and step count throughout the day!
(And complaining about how her Fitbit model is so out-of date!)
 

Pyrrhus

Senior Member
Messages
4,172
Location
U.S., Earth
Great information from another thread:
I did quite a bit of research on this subject when a group of patients was trying to choose a device that we would all wear and compare results. An important point is the technology used to track this data. The watch-only devices use an optical measurement (a light measuring blood flow in the wrist), while the chest-strap units record electrical activity and are much more accurate for HR. But, they are a pain to wear all the time. I tried wearing my Polar chest strap unit 24/7 for a while and it not only was not very comfortable but it irritated the skin. We actually bought Fitbit wrist units (the new Inspire 2--$100). We got a free year of their premium package and it is does track HR, HRV, breathing, sleep (detailed graphs showing both time asleep, awakenings and sleep stages), steps and it is supposed to detect the type of exercise activity you are doing.
Very annoying! But super accurate. Note all these HR monitors average your HR over several beats--so they do NOT give a beat-by-beat report. What you see on your display is an average over several seconds. For most purposes this is fine. If you are trying to track an arrhythmia, it can be slightly misleading.
Nope, some wrist units will track both.

So, after about 6 months of using the Fitbit Inspire 2, here is how it has performed (I'm guessing that all the various models of Fitbit will give similar results).

HR: it is off by about 3 BPM--I know this because I have a pacemaker that is set for an exact rate and the Fitbit reads 3 beats faster.

HRV: The graph display is not as detailed as the garmin vivosmart 4 that @keepswimming posted about. I have no way to know if the HRV data on the Fitbit is accurate though.

Breathing: Not a detailed graph and I don't have a way to check its accuracy.

Sleep: great graphs but not so accurate. Sometimes it reports that I am asleep when I am awake and vice-versa--but it does give a pretty good general picture.

Steps: not totally accurate but pretty good ballpark. (I have counted my steps for short periods to compare).

Detecting exercise: I have been trying the occasional short, outdoor bike ride. It recognizes this, times it and gives my average HR for the ride--but it only recognizes it about 2/3 rds of the time.

Another consideration is EMFs. They all emit some but smart phone type tracker seem to emit more. Most trackers of all sorts use Bluetooth.

Hope this helps.