Sophora Flavescens / Ku Shen / Oxymatrine

[hapl808]

I just went through a couple bottles of Nature's Health Ku Shen at a dosage of around 2g per day (usually 4 capsules). I think it may have helped my brain fog a bit, as it seems a bit worse two days after I ran out. Too early to tell for sure, though.

Since Ku Shen is a much lower dose than oxymatrine, considering either raising the dosage of Ku Shen or trying one of the oxymatrine.

Does anyone have experience with both? Since the Nature's Health is a low dosage and somewhat expensive, I've looked at the Hawaii Herb Pharm 3:1 tincture, or getting bulk powdered herb or granules from 1stChineseHerbs which seems cheaper (although not sure if the 10:1 translates).

Also thinking maybe one of the oxymatrine, but not sure which one is reliable, and if the risks are higher with those.

Curious to hear any thoughts.

 

[Hip]

Since Ku Shen is a much lower dose than oxymatrine, considering either raising the dosage of Ku Shen or trying one of the oxymatrine.

Ku Shen root herb contains around 2% oxymatrine, so your 2 grams of this root daily equates to about 40 mg of oxymatrine. Which is a bit lower than the White Tiger oxymatrine, which has 200 mg oxymatrine per tablet.

(Although if you have a Ku Shen concentrated extract, like say 5:1, that would contain more than 2% oxymatrine).


By the way, the Alternative Medicine Solutions oxymatrine has been discontinued, so the only sources of oxymatrine I know are White Tiger and Dr Chia's Equilibrant product.

White Tiger I believe contains a mixture of oxymatrine and matrine.


There is also a matrine product available (also here and here). Matrine is considered stronger than oxymatrine in terms of its immune effects (although oxymatrine is converted to matrine anyway when taken orally).

Dr Chia has said that matrine injections are available in China, and these are more potent against enterovirus. Dr Chia said:

IV matrine is even more effective but he can't give it here (didn't explain why). Studies in China (written in Chinese) show 2 months IV matrine has 97% effectiveness for chronic coxsackie B myocarditis vs 0% in placebo

A possible downside to using oral matrine instead of oxymatrine is that the former might cause dizziness for an hour or so after taking it. This side effect may not occur, but it's a possible issue.

I say this just because when I took the Alternative Medicine Solutions capsules, which are pure oxymatrine at 300 mg per capsule, I never experienced any dizziness. But when I took the White Tiger tablets which contain 200 mg of oxymatrine, and I suspect matrine as well, then I had some mild dizziness.

Though the White Tiger tablets might also contain other components from Ku Shen, such as sophoridine, which can cause dizziness. Sophoridine has antiviral properties for coxsackievirus B.

 

[hapl808]

Ku Shen root herb contains around 2% oxymatrine, so your 2 grams of this root daily equates to about 40 mg of oxymatrine. Which is a bit lower than the White Tiger oxymatrine, which has 200 mg oxymatrine per tablet.

(Although if you have a Ku Shen concentrated extract, like say 5:1, that would contain more than 2% oxymatrine).

Thanks for that info. Any thoughts on using a concentrated tincture vs a decoction vs the dry herb for bioavailability, etc?

 

[Hip]

Any thoughts on using a concentrated tincture vs a decoction vs the dry herb for bioavailability, etc?

I don't really know. But bioavailability is not really an issue, as Dr Chia warns against taking too high a dose of oxymatrine. Someone was taking quite a few capsules of the 300 mg AMS oxymatrine, and Dr Chia said that was too much.


Here are some notes from my oxymatrine folder:

Matrine and oxymatrine are the two major alkaloid components found in sophora roots.
...
When taken orally, much of the oxymatrine is converted to matrine; to get high blood levels of oxymatrine, it must be given by injection. However, it is unclear whether oxymatrine is clinically more effective than matrine.

Source: here


Oxymatrine is converted into matrine when taken orally, but by injection it remains as oxymatrine. Studies show that it is oxymatrine which ramps up the antiviral Th1 immune response.

So taking oxymatrine transdermally (which would be similar to injection) may be a different protocol to oral oxymatrine, because you may get more oxymatrine into the body by the transdermal route.

 

[hapl808]

I say this just because when I took the Alternative Medicine Solutions capsules, which are pure oxymatrine at 300 mg per capsule, I never experienced any dizziness. But when I took the White Tiger tablets which contain 200 mg of oxymatrine, and I suspect matrine as well, then I had some mild dizziness.

Though the White Tiger tablets might also contain other components from Ku Shen, such as sophoridine, which can cause dizziness. Sophoridine has antiviral properties for coxsackievirus B.

Did you find the White Tiger Oxymatrine helpful? I see they're on Amazon at the moment.

https://www.amazon.com/Oxymatrine-84-tablets-White-Tiger/dp/B002F360RM

Also Nootropic Depot has a 100mg Matrine, but not sure if that would be as useful for us?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B69LFVBM

I could just do Ku Shen again, but I've gone through a few bottles with 'some' benefit, but small enough that it's hard to be sure.

When I take anti-pathogen things, my brain fog gets better and usually my sleep less restful and worse digestion. When I stop taking them, my brain fog and headaches worsen, my digestion improves (initially, then often gets bad), and my sleep gets better.

Hard to know what to do.

 

[Hip]

Did you find the White Tiger Oxymatrine helpful? I see they're on Amazon at the moment.

I tried White Tiger and other forms of oxymatrine, but it did not help in my case. But the success rate for enterovirus ME/CFS is not that high, maybe it makes a major difference in about 10 or 20% of patients.

White Tiger made me dizzy for an hour or so not long after taking it, for some reason. I did not get this side effect from Alternative Medicines Solutions oxymatrine, but that product is no longer available.

I believe oxymatrine converts to matrine when taken orally.

 

[Dude]

Hello everyone, I have started Oxymatrine a few days ago and I have a bottle from natures health (which i start for the first 2 weeks 2x2 pills a day) and continue with the Chia preparation (equilibrant 2x2 pills a day). A question for those for whom it has worked, how long does it take until you can assess its effectiveness?

 

[Dude]

I read somewhere that dr chia recommend inosine to add with equilibrant . Question to the entero specialists. Do they mean the inosine supplement or inosin pranobrex? Does it matter?
What is dr chia's recommendation here?

Inosine is often used to fight viral infections (enterovirus) by ME.

 

[hapl808]

I read somewhere that dr chia recommend inosine to add with equilibrant . Question to the entero specialists. Do they mean the inosine supplement or inosin pranobrex? Does it matter?
What is dr chia's recommendation here?

I've always found inosine vs inosine pranobrex very confusing. I assume he means inosine pranobrex here since that's the antiviral one?

 

[mrmichaelfreedmen]

I've always found inosine vs inosine pranobrex very confusing. I assume he means inosine pranobrex here since that's the antiviral one?

Chia uses Inosine because it is easy to source and it is virtually identical to inosine pranobrex. Many CFS/ME specialists around the world believe the two items are interchangeable

 

[hapl808]

Chia uses Inosine because it is easy to source and it is virtually identical to inosine pranobrex. Many CFS/ME specialists around the world believe the two items are interchangeable

Thanks, I didn't realize that. I thought they were fundamentally different and just sounded similar. That makes it much easier to trial.