Some questions for those who have been taking vitamin D3

[serg1942]

Hi everybody,

I have been working on a thorough review on vitamin D supplementation--which I am finding much to my surprise to inhibit pretty much all parts of the immune system with a potency similar to that of corticosteroids--, and it would be very important to me, in order to finish this investigation and reach valid conclusions, to know the following questions. I'd really appreciate your inputs here! I will be sharing with you my article really soon:

For those of you who have been taking vitamin D for a long time:

1. How much of vit D3 (Cholecalciferol) have you been taking and for how long (more or less)?

2. If you are measuring blood levels, could you please let me know what concentration of 25-hidroxicolecalciferol (Calcifediol) and of 1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol (calcitrol), in blood, have you achieved (please give me the units if possible)? I am much more interested in the levels of the active form, calcitrol, as I assume that its precursor, Calcifediol, did rise in serum by taking supplemental vit D3. I need to know if this makes the active vitamin D to increase even more (it is usually high in chronic diseases), given that this is the one that might be causing serious problems.

3. If you could let me know which were your previous levels of both vitamins (previous to start supplementing vit D3), this would be also really helpful!

Thank you very much in advance!
Sergio

 

[pamojja]

1. How much of vit D3 (Cholecalciferol) have you been taking and for how long (more or less)?

Guess you'll get more quicker results if you search the forum for 1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol, also try google site search. Never got it tested myself. Here are my results for 10 years, started comprehensive supplementation in 2009:

year: ng/ml - mcg/d

2009:       -   50
2010:   63  -  160
2011:   43  -  140
2012:   62  -  300
2013:   84  -  200
2014:   50  -  190
2015:   78  -  210
2016:   72  -  170
2017:  101  -  220
2018:   93  -  160

You can read about the details and how much it helped here.

 

[serg1942]

Wow @pamojja , this is helpful!!!! Thank you so much! It is not that easy to find studies which have measured both vitamins after a period of time of supplementation in chronic conditions... I have been researching this subject for weeks, and read over a hounded studies, and yet this point was still a mystery to me... Never thought I would find it by searching on the forum either, as it is a very specific measurement what I'm looking for, but I'll try!

As per your improvement, I'll read your post. After everything I am researching, it seems clear that vit D3 supplementation does help many patients with many conditions, but its molecular effects are not very different to that of corticosteroids or that of TLR inhibitors, or that of other specific anti-inflammatory drugs for autoimmune conditions. You are actually inhibiting both the acquired (this is not necessarily bad, although you do it in such a powerful way that I think it might be dangerous) and the innate response (here's the real dilema). So, you are letting intracelullar infections to spread, and even though you can get symptomatic relieve from vit D3, in the long term you are worsening the situation in my humble opinion (which I'll back up soon with plenty of evidence). Supporting this idea, there is evidence indicating that, even when the 1,25 dyhydroxicholecalciferol is high, it is not really activating its receptor (VDR), so there's no way you are boosting the innate-vitamin-D-mediated immunity; you are rather immunesupressing even more...

Again thank you so much!
Best!
Sergio

 

[serg1942]

Never got it tested myself. Here are my results for 10 years, .

What do you mean? aren't these your results over the years of blood 0,25 hydroxycholecalciferol (first row) and 1,25 dihydroxicholecalciferol (second row)?

Thanks! Sergio

 

[serg1942]

Ok, I'm sorry @pamojja , the units (different to Spain) got me confused... you only measured the 0,25 one???...I don't get it, as the numbers in different units should be proportional, but these are not... Could you please explain what you measured?

Thanks anyway for sharing!! Sergio

 

[pamojja]

Could you please explain what you measured?

The year, averaged out 25(OH)D serum levels and the daily vitamin D3 intakes in mcg.

Also relevant to vitamin D serum levels, have been since 2012 in the deepest winter each for 6 weeks to a South-Indian beach, where I've got full-body sun-exposure each day from 10-12AM and 3:30-5:30PM without suncream. Never got sunburned. But by therefore lowering supplementation returned with even below normal serum levels one time. Last year I quit one of my part-time jobs, and therefore also during the Central-European Summer got 40 days with daily 2 hrs sun-exposure. But this Summer really beat it all, have been getting already 90 days! Thereby also love the cold-water adaptation starting right now. End of last year had my highest 25(OH)D of 135 ng/ml. Showing that only since recently sunshine is for the first time substantially contributing to my serum levels.

So, you are letting intracelullar infections to spread, and even though you can get symptomatic relieve from vit D3, in the long term you are worsening the situation in my humble opinion (which I'll back up soon with plenty of evidence)

Don't you think I would have felt it by now? Instead had a 60% walking-disability revoked from PAD! And sometime think it really strange that with so many chronic diseases to have had my last sickness leave (3 days) 12 years ago already. Am actually getting jealous about some of my coworkers, who are otherwise totally healthy but still enjoy sickness leaves.

Would love to see the evidence, but usually scientific studies only test one agent at a time, in this case vitamin D. Every experienced supplementer knows hows stupid to do that would be. One needs each and every nutrient, with D3 especially vitamin A, Ks, Magnesium, etc. And at high doses too. I haven't found even one study looking into combined supplementation.

 

[serg1942]

Ok, thanks for clarifying!

 

[Mary]

I have been working on a thorough review on vitamin D supplementation--which I am finding much to my surprise to inhibit pretty much all parts of the immune system with a potency similar to that of corticosteroids--,

This sounds a little scary! I've been taking 5000 IU of D3 for many years, probably at least 10 years if not more.

Here's my last two blood tests:
8/16 - Vitamin D,25-OH (25 hydroxyvitamin D, calcidiol 25-hydroxycholecalcifoerol test -
Range: 30 - 100, result: 52

12/17 - Same test, result 61

I didn't see results for calcitrol.

 

[Hufsamor]

I have tried dvit supplements over and over again, different brands, different doses. But i get sick every time. Complainig to my doctor, she told me to use solarium 10 min twice a week. (I am from norway, so in the wintertime it is not enough sun to get what i need from the real sun....It was a rule for how much time in the sun i would need summertime as well - i think 10- 20 min in shorts an singlet in the sun every day)
Just in case you dont do well on d vit sup either.
(And if you are able to sit in the sun every day)

 

[pamojja]

Never thought I would find it by searching on the forum either, as it is a very specific measurement what I'm looking for, but I'll try!

For example this thread:

How many people have had their 1,25 Vitamin D tested? Debunking the Marshall Protocol

 

[Thinktank]

I will have to look up the numbers from the past 5 years but overall 25-oh is low and 1,25 di-oh is high.
Vitamin D supplementation makes me feel sick, no matter the dose.

 

[Sundancer]

I use 400 iu daily in summer ( as codliveroil) and add twice 5000 a week in winter.
I started taking supplementation when I became sick, as I've always been walking and working in the sun and all of a sudden was bedbound. I tjhought it logical, was the first sup I started taking.

in the summer that I was falling ill ( so before supplementation) D25OH was 107.

last year my new GP had it measured twice, 106 and 111 ( so with the abovementioned amounts)
I'll stay on this dose until I'm (hopefully) able to get in the sun again.

 

[pamojja]

I am much more interested in the levels of the active form, calcitrol, as I assume that its precursor, Calcifediol, did rise in serum by taking supplemental vit D3. I need to know if this makes the active vitamin D to increase even more (it is usually high in chronic diseases), given that this is the one that might be causing serious problems.

I think there are intrinsic problems in trying to confirm one's bias with asking such a question on a forum. As already mentioned, companion nutrients you don't even ask for might play a much higher role than is scientifically assumed. Secondly, everyone advising supplementation above certain harmless RDA amounts, advises to do so by making sure serum levels, be it 25 or 1.25, do stay in range. Therefore most having a series of tests would have the dose adapted accordingly. Where one could expect everyone responding with too high 1.25 levels, having at least reduced the dose. And therefore sort of impossible to find even one where the same dose of vit D3 despite high 1.25 levels would increase it even further.

..but overall 25-oh is low and 1,25 di-oh is high.
Vitamin D supplementation makes me feel sick, no matter the dose.

Like the experience of Thinktank, high levels despite not supplementing wouldn't confirm the bias. Since in his case there must be totally other factors at play causing high levels, he doesn't even tolerate supplementation.

For example this thread:

How many people have had their 1,25 Vitamin D tested? Debunking the Marshall Protocol

However, having now read that thread - beside finding further cases with high 1.25 levels but not even tolerating vitamin D supplements, or ceasing supplementation without followup - to my surprise I also found exactly 1 interesting report having consecutive testing with high levels, AND STARTING at a high supplemental dose:

https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/activated-vitamin-d-vs-25ohd-levels-what-should-you-measure/

I wanted to keep my promise and follow up with you regarding the high calcitriol that had everyone so concerned.

You instructed me to start taking at least 1000 mg of Calcium/Mg/ZN daily. I also began taking 5,000 IU/day of D3. I have begun drinking milk again and my calcium intake has come closer to 2000 mg daily over the last two months.

• On 10-12-2012 the calcitriol level was 128 ng/L.
• On 11-12-2012 the level was 95.0
• On 21-21-2012 the level was 62.0.

Despite the difficulty of even finding such cases, the only found till now does confirm that missing Vitamin D and companion nutrients could be at fault, and starting with high doses didn't raise it further, but even brought 1.25 levels down to a healthy range.

 

[pamojja]

..it seems clear that vit D3 supplementation does help many patients with many conditions, but its molecular effects are not very different to that of corticosteroids or that of TLR inhibitors, or that of other specific anti-inflammatory drugs for autoimmune conditions. You are actually inhibiting both the acquired (this is not necessarily bad, although you do it in such a powerful way that I think it might be dangerous) and the innate response (here's the real dilema).

Just ask yourself this question: how many would stay alive without corticosteroids? For example in an adrenal crisis?

 

[pamojja]

Checked what https://www.labtestanalyzer.com says about higher than normal calcitriol levels. Do take it with a grain of salt, in that they just started to sieve through the whole of scientific literature this year (really a difficult and endless task; also considering the hierarchy of evidence). And always best to check the reverences for oneself (at times single case reports, where completely unknown factors may be at play).

High calcitriol can be caused by:

• Overactive parathyroid gland (hyperparathyroidism) [R]
• Chronic inflammation and inflammatory disorders, such as rheumatoid arthritis, Crohn’s disease, and ulcerative colitis [R,R]
• Sarcoidosis, a chronic lung disease [R]
• Tuberculosis [R]
• Lymphoma (cancer of white blood cells) [R]
• Inflammatory myofibroblastic tumor (a usually benign tumor) [R]
• Genetic disorders such as vitamin D–dependent rickets type 2 [R]

High 1,25 dihydroxyvitamin D levels can sometimes lead to high calcium levels in the blood. If you have elevated calcium levels, you may experience [R,R]:

• Muscle weakness
• Fatigue
• Irritability
• Loss of appetite
• Nausea
• Vomiting
• Abdominal pain
• Constipation

And the suggestions:

Seek medical attention for any health condition!

You also want to avoid foods rich in calcium and phosphorus, since vitamin D increases the absorption of these minerals. These include dairy products; milk, yogurt, and cheese, as well as eggs, meats (beef), and seafood [R].

You should also try to reduce your sun exposure, and wear sunscreen and skin-covering clothes when out in the sun if possible [R].

Supplements that can help:

• Phosphate (if deficient) [R]

In comparison to my highest peak at 135 ng/ml (25(OH)D):

Your vitamin D levels are above the normal range!

Elevated vitamin D increases your risk of all-cause mortality [R,R].

It is rare to have too much vitamin D. The most common cause is excessive supplementation; sun exposure usually does not lead to toxic levels of vitamin D, as extra sunlight automatically degrades any excess vitamin D[R].

The main consequence of vitamin D toxicity is a buildup of calcium in your blood (hypercalcemia), which in turn causes the symptoms associated with high vitamin D levels. These symptoms can include[R]:

• Nausea and vomiting
• Loss of appetite
• Constipation and diarrhea
• Tiredness
• Confusion
• Headaches
• Muscle and joint pain
• Bone pain
• Weakness
• Nervousness and itching
• Irregular heart beat
• Frequent urination and feeling thirsty
• Kidney stones

___________________________________

The easiest way to reduce elevated levels is to stop taking vitamin D supplements [R].

You also want to avoid foods rich in calcium and phosphorus, since vitamin D increases the absorption of these minerals. These include dairy products; milk, yogurt, and cheese, as well as eggs, meats (beef), and seafood [R].

You should also try to reduce your sun exposure, and wear sunscreen and skin-covering clothes when out in the sun if possible [R].

In the case of serious vitamin D toxicity, visit your doctor [R].

Supplements that can help:

• Vitamin K [R]

So till now they haven't seem to have found any real association between high 1.25 and 25 levels. The first is caused by diseases. The later by supplementation of Vitamin D.

However, Dr. John Canell's findings in sieving the literature:

https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/latest-case-stuides-on-vitamin-d-toxicity/

Vitamin D levels associated with clear toxicity ranged from 194 to 1220 ng/ml. To my knowledge, toxicity occurring at 194 ng/ml is the lowest vitamin D level causing clear toxicity known in the medical literature.
...
I am concerned that people with levels greater than 150 ng/ml may be urinating out more calcium than they should; that is urinating out their bones. .. To be safe, keep your 25(OH)D vitamin D levels below 100 ng/ml.

Personally vitamin D brought serum calcium up from below normal within 2 years of starting to supplement. And stayed at the mean since. Ionized calcium at the perfectly mean of range for last 4 years. Parathyroid hormone also from below normal to just above the lower end of range tested repeatedly. Phosphor at the lower third of the normal range in average.

 

[pamojja]

Elevated vitamin D increases your risk of all-cause mortality [R,R].

Looking at these 2 particular reverences for the claim that elevated vitamin D increases risk of all-cause mortality, they both relativize their findings in the end:

[R]: The study did not allow inference of causality, and further studies are needed to elucidate a possible causal relationship between 25(OH)D levels, especially higher levels, and mortality.

[R]: A reverse J-shaped association between serum 25(OH)D and all-cause mortality appears to be real. It is uncertain whether the association is causal.

Most likely reason for such epidemiological results (which never proof causation due to unknown confounders) is, that only supplementation causes higher 25(OH)D levels. Therefore only those with preexisting chronic diseases (as in my case) would try to reach such high levels. And still in the end die earlier, but not from the higher levels, but more likely the chronic issues itself.

 

[jesse's mom]

I have a question on this subject. Please excuse the fact that I am real beginner in learning to supplement.

My new DR ahd blood work once, then asked me to come back and have some other blood tests. She prescribed a very high dose vitamin D3 (1.25mg 50000 unit that I was to take once a week.

I took it on Saturday afternoon, since then my blood pressure has dropped dangerously low. It has been hovering around 100/50, both evenings and today down to 95/40, my beats per minute are not high. I was passing out in medsentance yesterday evening, then it began to come up. I slept 3 hours and then was awake all night.

Is there anything I can do to naturally bring this down? Walking around the house is not helping and I do not want to fall.

At what point should I go to the dreaded ER?

 

[pamojja]

Is there anything I can do to naturally bring this down?

Not much one can do against sensitivity to a high dose vitamin D, except stop taking any, along with reducing calcium intake (esp. diary). Personally wouldn't take such unnatural high prescribed boluses at once, which often aren't even vitamin D3 but D2.

I'm hoping you returned to somewhat normal and didn't need to go to the ER.

 

[Crux]

I took it on Saturday afternoon, since then my blood pressure has dropped dangerously low. It has been hovering around 100/50, both evenings and today down to 95/40, my beats per minute are not high. I was passing out in medsentance yesterday evening, then it began to come up. I slept 3 hours and then was awake all night.

Vitamin D can increase the production of nitric oxide, a gas that relaxes blood vessels and lowers blood pressure.

Is there anything I can do to naturally bring this down? Walking around the house is not helping and I do not want to fall.

In the ER, vitamin D overdose is treated with corticosteroids, fluids, etc.

Fat soluble vitamins, such as K2,E,and A are needed for Vitamin D uptake.

 

[jesse's mom]

In the ER, vitamin D overdose is treated with corticosteroids, fluids, etc.

Thank you, I had to treat my asthma with a Advair dose, and my emergency albuterol puffer. i have since stopped wheezing and had some normal BPs in the 120/90 range. I was super thirsty and drank lots of water and some tea.

This now makes perfect sense.