Soluble fiber + Resistant starch = light stool?

[bizzoc]

Hello all,

I don't want to discourage people reading by writing a novel, so I'll try to keep it short

Low fiber+RS = dark brown stool
High fiber+RS = medium to light brown stool

I'm concerned the carbs from the increased fiber intake are feeding pathogenic bacteria which is consuming the bile before the BSH enzyme producing probiotic strains can deconjugate it and make it dark brown. Previously stool was yellow with more fiber/carbs, so I'm proceeding cautiously. No symptoms other than color and adrenal fatigue (working on it). I've read soluble fiber and resistant starch can lighten stool, but could use some reassurance. Currently having roughly 8.5g soluble fiber, 20g RS, and 23.5g insoluble fiber. I've read soluble fiber can dilute bile pigments in the stool, potentially leading to a lighter color, and RS fermenting in the colon can influence stool color.

Thank you

 

[Dysfunkion]

I tried the resistant starch thing myself, as a experienced carboholic I know just how all different kinds of carbs in all kinds of different situations effect me! (no I'm proud of this lol) I one night ate a ton of plain white potato with some broccoli for some extra fiber. Every time I do this I also get the light stools that get lighter the more fiber there is. Rice itself doesn't tend to do this on its own, washed or unwashed. Potato is a huge light stool with brain fog, blurry vision, and fatigue culprit. It's a very similar reaction I have to all tofu you can get at the store except that really makes the blurry vision symptom worse than potato and comes with some brain burn in the forehead/frontal area that potato doesn't. I don't have it too often besides enjoying fries sometimes cause I'm just not a huge potato fan in general outside of soup. Since tofu isn't even a carb and plain rice is the most inoffensive thing I can eat often it has to be feeding some specific pathogen that does that. Brown rice specifically is capable of inducing diarrhea and it's worse the more wet it is. No other rice does this.

I over the past weekend tried high does activated charcoal and there was a brief moment all of the issues just stopped. Vision? completely clear, anxiety? POOF, fatigue? vanished!, tinnitus? reduced to nothing, and facial neuropathy? gone. Something is definitely being produced in there in my case that it can move around but simply not eating carbs doesn't do much. I've has stretches recently where I was barely consuming any for a week straight save for small amounts of tortilla chips now and then. Multiple completely unrelated foods all trigger the same umbrella but potato specifically can bring on the light stools the easiest. I've had times where I ate tons of safer junk food and it was still brown even if what it was had a lot of refined sugar. Whatever it is producing it, it loves fiber and sitting starches a lot.

 

[bizzoc]

I tried the resistant starch thing myself, as a experienced carboholic I know just how all different kinds of carbs in all kinds of different situations effect me! (no I'm proud of this lol) I one night ate a ton of plain white potato with some broccoli for some extra fiber. Every time I do this I also get the light stools that get lighter the more fiber there is. Rice itself doesn't tend to do this on its own, washed or unwashed. Potato is a huge light stool with brain fog, blurry vision, and fatigue culprit. It's a very similar reaction I have to all tofu you can get at the store except that really makes the blurry vision symptom worse than potato and comes with some brain burn in the forehead/frontal area that potato doesn't. I don't have it too often besides enjoying fries sometimes cause I'm just not a huge potato fan in general outside of soup. Since tofu isn't even a carb and plain rice is the most inoffensive thing I can eat often it has to be feeding some specific pathogen that does that. Brown rice specifically is capable of inducing diarrhea and it's worse the more wet it is. No other rice does this.

I over the past weekend tried high does activated charcoal and there was a brief moment all of the issues just stopped. Vision? completely clear, anxiety? POOF, fatigue? vanished!, tinnitus? reduced to nothing, and facial neuropathy? gone. Something is definitely being produced in there in my case that it can move around but simply not eating carbs doesn't do much. I've has stretches recently where I was barely consuming any for a week straight save for small amounts of tortilla chips now and then. Multiple completely unrelated foods all trigger the same umbrella but potato specifically can bring on the light stools the easiest. I've had times where I ate tons of safer junk food and it was still brown even if what it was had a lot of refined sugar. Whatever it is producing it, it loves fiber and sitting starches a lot.

Thank you for your reply.

I resolved my yellow stool issue by correcting my colon pH after chelating which also released a lot of biofilm, so it's definitely possible there is still something left in there that is feeding on it. I suppose we should establish a baseline though, as in, does this happen to recovered people? I'm curious if I should keep focusing on removing biofilm and correcting dysbiosis, or give up and eat normally. I don't recall having this much resistant starch and fiber prior to my illness, so I'm not sure if it's normal, lol.

 

[LINE]

I over the past weekend tried high does activated charcoal and there was a brief moment all of the issues just stopped. Vision? completely clear, anxiety? POOF, fatigue? vanished!, tinnitus? reduced to nothing, and facial neuropathy? gone. Something is definitely being produced in there in my case that it can move around but simply not eating carbs doesn't do much. I've has stretches recently where I was barely consuming any for a week straight save for small amounts of tortilla chips now and then. Multiple completely unrelated foods all trigger the same umbrella but potato specifically can bring on the light stools the easiest. I've had times where I ate tons of safer junk food and it was still brown even if what it was had a lot of refined sugar. Whatever it is producing it, it loves fiber and sitting starches a lot.

A little off topic but charcoal has been a lifesaver for me. The byproducts (toxins) elicited from the immune response are quite damaging. Binders work well to pull those out.

 

[bizzoc]

A little off topic but charcoal has been a lifesaver for me. The byproducts (toxins) elicited from the immune response are quite damaging. Binders work well to pull those out.

Gotta be careful, activated charcoal can absorb the good stuff too like vitamins and minerals. Have you tried phase 2 biofilm busters, I'm curious if it would make a difference for you. Remember, the good bacteria in your gut are happiest in an acidic colon, whereas pathogenic bacteria prefer more alkaline and produce compounds to keep it that way. Plus, the good bacteria are more sensitive to heavy metal toxicity whereas the bad guys enjoy it. Taking probiotics, antimicrobials and eating "right" accomplishes nothing.

 

[Wishful]

I can't add to the poll, since I didn't record stool colour when I might have tried resistant starch. I can say that I haven't noticed any correlation between stool colour (or other properties) and ME symptoms.

FWIW, I think my recent bowel pain (temporary blockage?) made me lose an important fibre-digesting bacterial strain again. I'll have to pick up some probiotics on my next shopping trip, to test that.

 

[bizzoc]

I can't add to the poll, since I didn't record stool colour when I might have tried resistant starch. I can say that I haven't noticed any correlation between stool colour (or other properties) and ME symptoms.

FWIW, I think my recent bowel pain (temporary blockage?) made me lose an important fibre-digesting bacterial strain again. I'll have to pick up some probiotics on my next shopping trip, to test that.

Thanks for the reply

I think everything is cumulative, so while stool color might not immediately cause symptoms, it can be related to absorption issues or inflammation according some sources. After a while of being deficient, numerous biological processes are negatively affected. For instance, there's a vicious circle whereby potassium deficiency causes the kidneys to excrete potassium, which exacerbates the deficiency. For me, I resolved a significant amount of my digestive issues by juicing raw green veg, and now take a potassium supplement because I'm sick of juicing, lol.

Regarding the fiber-digesting probiotic strains, I noticed for myself that after eating certain fibrous veg, I would see bits of it in my stool. After correcting my colon pH, high dose probiotics and high fiber/RS diet in addition to chelation, that issue is gone or at least greatly diminished.

 

[LINE]

Gotta be careful, activated charcoal can absorb the good stuff too like vitamins and minerals. Have you tried phase 2 biofilm busters, I'm curious if it would make a difference for you. Remember, the good bacteria in your gut are happiest in an acidic colon, whereas pathogenic bacteria prefer more alkaline and produce compounds to keep it that way. Plus, the good bacteria are more sensitive to heavy metal toxicity whereas the bad guys enjoy it. Taking probiotics, antimicrobials and eating "right" accomplishes nothing.

I take charcoal away from nutritional supplements for the reason you suggest. Yes, ran through multiple chelators to address toxic metals. Yes, to the last statement except the antimicrobials (in my case). There are multiple layers (and multiple considerations) when dealing with the gut environment which is complex as you know.

I just wrapped up my conclusions on a butyrate experiment that lasted about 6 months, it centered around the barrier integrity (tight junction proteins), I posted it here on PR. In short, barrier integrity is quite important for a number of reasons, I believe it plays an important role. Post #84 is my synopsis.

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/microbiome-butyrate-inflammation.91466/page-5#post-2465748

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

[bizzoc]

Yes, ran through multiple chelators to address toxic metals. Yes, to the last statement except the antimicrobials (in my case).

I just wrapped up my conclusions on a butyrate experiment that lasted about 6 months, it centered around the barrier integrity (tight junction proteins), I posted it here on PR. In short, barrier integrity is quite important for a number of reasons, I believe it plays an important role. Post #84 is my synopsis.

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/microbiome-butyrate-inflammation.91466/page-5#post-2465748

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I should've clarified, I meant if you have heavy metal toxicity, colon pH issues or biofilms, antimicrobials will do nothing aside from provide temporary relief. The infections will just grow back, especially if you have a compromised immune system.

My barrier integrity is why I've been taking high resistant starch. I'll read through your thread later tonight, thanks for the link!

 

[Dysfunkion]

A little off topic but charcoal has been a lifesaver for me. The byproducts (toxins) elicited from the immune response are quite damaging. Binders work well to pull those out.

Yeah I have some old bentonite clay on hand too but activated charcoal for some reason does the job a lot better and the clay lays like a brick in my system too till it's out. I just activated charcoal as a reset button when too much garbage has been accumulated. I feel like if I take a higher dose every couple weeks it's good maintenance even though it doesn't really tackle the root of the problem. On top of that before it gets better after I take it feels like a war for my nervous system breaks out and the day I dose it is always a roller coaster.

 

[Florida Guy]

I do not believe RS or ordinary fiber causes bad bacteria to grow in the gut. In fact, I've read advisories made by doctors and clinics saying the opposite, that sugar and carbs feed the bad ones and fiber feeds the good ones.

Fiber and cellulose is made up of sugar molecules strung together which makes them hard to digest. Thats why fiber does not taste sweet but certain bacteria can break it down. Termites make use of these types of bacteria to break down and digest the wood they eat

 

[bizzoc]

I do not believe RS or ordinary fiber causes bad bacteria to grow in the gut. In fact, I've read advisories made by doctors and clinics saying the opposite, that sugar and carbs feed the bad ones and fiber feeds the good ones.

Fiber and cellulose is made up of sugar molecules strung together which makes them hard to digest. Thats why fiber does not taste sweet but certain bacteria can break it down. Termites make use of these types of bacteria to break down and digest the wood they eat

Yes, so this is my dilemma. Highest content of resistant starch, excluding supplements, is in raw oats which I soak overnight. Problem is, oats have carbs, roughly 90g per cup, so I'm concerned that's what's feeding the "bad guys". I know they say to subtract the fiber from the carbs, bit it's still like 75g of carbs. But then if you were to solely focus on veg sources for RS, you typically get the same amount of carbs after eating 5-10x as many servings to reach the same amount of RS. This is why I asked, is it normal? Is gut dysbiosis fully resolved if you can eat 20g resistant starch and have dark brown stool. Would it be better to keep the carbs under 30g or whatever works so long as your stool is dark brown, and then after a couple weeks, try increasing it? I know it's not fiber specifically because avocados and artichokes are high in fiber and didn't change the color like a cup of oats did, or I just didn't eat enough servings. I thought I would see incremental darkening of my stool, but I'm not. I still see biofilm coming out after specific targeted treatments, but its nowhere near what it was initially. The colon is only 5ft long, it has to be nearly cleared out by now. I'm going to try this next time, slowly increasing the RS 5g every week or two, and see when it changes. I messed around with chelation, colon pH, colonics, antiparasitics, using antimicrobials followed by high dose probiotics like VSL3 (500billion CFU) and same thing. My stool is generally "textbook", so long as I lay off the RS. I think something else is wrong, but have run out of ideas. Open to suggestions?

Btw, I read somewhere a doctor (Dr Gundry) stating rs2 does feed pathogenic bacteria, so I usually double cook and cool potatoes and yams but I don't know, makes no difference for color, lol.

 

[Wishful]

Regarding the fiber-digesting probiotic strains, I noticed for myself that after eating certain fibrous veg, I would see bits of it in my stool.

AFAIK, we don't support any cellulose-digesting bacteria, so visible plant fibres (roughage) don't get digested. The wiki on dietary fibre is worth reading.

I do not believe RS or ordinary fiber causes bad bacteria to grow in the gut

It's not quite that simple. There may be good and bad bacteria, but there's probably a lot more good&bad strains and "sometimes good, sometimes bad" strains. They probably don't have really strict diets, but break down various molecules, depending on various factors. Then there's competition for space, responses by the body, and effects on viral and fungal populations. The effect on transit time also has effects on which strains grow where how quickly. So it's not as simple as "population of strain X123 depends only on your consumption of oats, and evil strain Y987 on banana consumption".


After my recent gut problem, I did notice visible chunks of fried ground beef in my stool, so that sort of food is difficult to digest (like chunks of plastic?). I can imagine those hard bits forming a "log jam". That log jam might have caused all sorts of effects on the microbiome. I suppose our ability to digest certain foods safely changes as we age.


Why did my school time never cover fibre, nutrition, or other such important topics in depth appropriate for its importance? A page or two in a textbook is not sufficient. Covering why we need dietary fibre seems a lot more important than memorizing which British king was involved in which war.

 

[Florida Guy]

I do not pay attention to stool color unless its unusual. Keep in mind that not all carbs are alike. Refined sugar is the villain and causes the most problems. Less refined carbs like edible starch take longer to break down so have a slightly less impact on blood sugar. Resistant starch does not break down at all via our digestion but bacteria can break it down. There are other types of fiber too

Fiber, including soluble fiber is considered good for health. It increases motility and reduces transit time as well as containing some RS for the good bacteria. They are considered good because they cause no problems and can help keep out the bacteria which do cause problems. E coli for example, has many varieties some of which are harmful and some beneficial. I take a probiotic containing beneficial strains. If you are ever given an antibiotic, its important to restock your good bacteria afterward. RS is a prebiotic.

Schools should teach the basics of nutrition as well as financial basics. How to balance a checkbook, how to apply for credit. We see that around half the people getting ready to retire have little or no savings. Getting a little off topic.

 

[bizzoc]

AFAIK, we don't support any cellulose-digesting bacteria, so visible plant fibres (roughage) don't get digested. The wiki on dietary fibre is worth reading.

I don't think the fiber was gone, but I don't see the green bits anymore, so perhaps the digestion of pigments and breakdown of plant matter improved. I still see strands of fiber, but they're not green anymore and blend well with the stool.

I do not pay attention to stool color unless its unusual.

Paying attention to my stool color is the only reason I'm still alive, so I'm a little bit uptight about anything out of the norm such as this lighter color. Our bodies are bioreactors and similar to cars, measuring the exhaust is an accurate way to know how it is working.


Check out this video, this is what I'm concerned of: https://streamable.com/ngpq7v

From a study Gastrointestinal Biofilms: Endoscopic Detection, Disease Relevance, and Therapeutic Strategies https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0016508524050546

 

[Wishful]

I noticed for myself that after eating certain fibrous veg, I would see bits of it in my stool.

That might be explained by increased motility: the more fibre, the faster the food passes out, the less time for visible food fragments to get broken down. I just checked about transit time: .8 hrs to 3.7 hrs. Food passes slower through women's colons than men's. Red meat takes 24-72 hrs, so I suppose my seeing the ground beef bits is normal, although I don't recall ever seeing steak or pork chop bits.

Some suggestions I found for marking your transit time are whole corn kernels, sunflower seeds, or beet roots (don't chew it completely). I'll add poppy seeds to that list, since the little dark seeds are quite obvious in stools.

I'm finding this thread quite educational.

 

[LINE]

>>Sorry for being a thread hog but thinking this information may be helpful. :>

The gut environment has been a long study for me, and I am constantly updating my protocols and knowledge base for what that is worth. It is interesting to see new studies coming out more and more as opposed to a scant of knowledge years ago.

The research articles today are clarifying that diversity of the gut is much more than what was thought years ago, and they know that the diversity is like a cocktail meaning that everyone has a mix of microbes in the gut that is doing things that is not quite fully understood.

Pathogen Invasion
I have a fair working knowledge of the pathogens that can harbor the gut, at least the classifications such as rogue bacteria, yeast/fungal, viral and parasites. I hosted a parasite forum that was mainly targeted to protozoa infections which technically are parasitic but act more like bacterial strains. Protozoa are the orphans of the gut environment and usually overlooked. Traditional stool testing will include the 2 most common protozoa in North America which are giardia and cryptosporidium. But these tests seldom look for other species. And then, there are the rogue species that are either unknown or unrecognized. Protozoa are well known to be disruptive of the gut environment except for commensals.

Commensals are known to inhabit the gut but do not create a hostile immune response. Then there are the subtypes which are variations (DNA variations) that are not studied enough. Those are another topic altogether.

The gram negatives are problematic and for good reason. They as also known as ESKAPE pathogens. Gram negatives all have one thing in common which is the bilayer membrane as opposed to gram positive which are comprised as single membrane organisms.

The double membrane makes them more difficult to kill off so a different standard of antibiotics are used to control these. I think there is another facet to those, in that they can possess resistance strategies such as genetic structures, and efflux pumps are another Gram positives are easier to get rid of with some simple pharma antibiotics and there are plenty of natural antibiotics that can attack them. I would suspect that there are many "probiotics" that could neutralize them. Though gram negatives are in a different class.

There is ongoing research in PubMed about gram negatives and strategies that can attack them. Of particular interest is the use of certain botanicals that have been proven in countless studies that can disrupt them. On a short list is cinnamon and preferably as Ceylon Cinnamon. Regular cinnamon you buy at the store is Cassia, Ceylon has fewer toxic properties. Typically, these substances are paired with antibiotics that provide the killing power. But not antibiotic can work which is another story.

Biofilms are another possibility as @bizzoc mentions. Biofilms are really protective membranes that pathogenic organisms can hide in. As a side note, there are known bacteria that can proliferate a stronger biofilm environment such as pseudomonas (gram negative). If an organism is locked in biofilms, it makes it difficult for the antibiotic (or immunity) to penetrate. There are a number of methods that can disrupt biofilms, and I have tried nearly all of them.

Of some interest Quorum Sensing is an interesting topic in that QS is sort of an internet communication system that bad bacteria use to protect the community. There are a number of natural things that can disrupt the QS.

Cell adhesion is another trick some bacteria can use. CA just means that certain bacteria can produce an adhesive that makes them stick to the human cells (I suppose walls) that make them somewhat resistant. In general terms, plants that are considered astringent can reduce their stickiness. Witch hazel is used externally for skin care, it is known as an astringent. Green tea is something that could be safely used internally that has an ability to disrupt the stickiness. And there are others.

Butyrate production is among the latest articles released. Butyrate is manufactured by certain bacteria that seems to be absent in CFS/ME people. Butyrate is healing for the gut wall which reduces inflammatory events. To be more specific, cytokine production is lessened with butyrate which is important systematically. There are some wicked cytokines such as Nf-Kb and others that are quite damaging to the body. For instance, these damage mitochondria which leads to fatigue and other issues.


The butyrate producers cannot thrive in a hostile environment. This means if you have a bad bacteria in the gut that is causing the immune system to react, it makes it difficult for the butyrate producers to proliferate. Without enough butyrate, the barrier function becomes damaged which leads to more inflammation. I covered that in my butyrate post. I also listed some protocols I found helpful.

Binders have always helped me and those can come in a few varieties. These binders sweep out the toxins created by the immune system. Those toxins not only recirculate in the body which puts stress on a number of systems but also disrupt the microbiome.

The gut environment can be complex but new information is helping to unravel this dynamic system.

Again, sorry for being a thread hog!

 

[LINE]

I should've clarified, I meant if you have heavy metal toxicity, colon pH issues or biofilms, antimicrobials will do nothing aside from provide temporary relief. The infections will just grow back, especially if you have a compromised immune system.

My barrier integrity is why I've been taking high resistant starch. I'll read through your thread later tonight, thanks for the link!

I never thought the RS and Barrier Integrity connection. In my past experiments, I have seen RS work for a bit then taper off, it certainly is worth a try. Thanks for letting us know.

 

[bizzoc]

I never thought the RS and Barrier Integrity connection. In my past experiments, I have seen RS work for a bit then taper off, it certainly is worth a try. Thanks for letting us know.

There was a study I read on intestinal mucus wall thickness that changed drastically with high fiber diets. You can thicken the lining of your gut quite easily, just eat a lot of fiber. The bacteria in your colon that eat fiber will produce a mucus that protects the colon. The more fiber you eat the thicker the lining gets. However, when you don't feed your biome and create that mucus, a keystone species, Akkermancia mucinophila, will start eating up the lining instead. It’s a sure way to create more issues long term, hence why the carnivore diet with no vegetables is a bad idea long term. Only problem is correcting the dysbiosis after you've dialed everything else in, I can't figure that out. I think I must have some infection that is resistant to everything I've tried, even colonics with citric acid and ozone insufflation. I "tested" myself and dropped the oats for a day and had a big bowl of rice and then later an entire pizza. Stool got lighter, so it's definitely carb related.

A 2017 study found that the importance of fiber is intimately tied with the importance of our gut microbes. A proper fiber diet literally feeds and makes these bacteria thrive. In turn, they increase in number and kind. The more microbes we have in our intestines, the thicker the mucus wall and the better the barrier between our body and our busy bacteria population. While the mucus barrier lowers inflammation throughout the body, the bacteria aid in digestion, creating a dual benefit.

A living, walking example of the great connection between fiber, intestinal bacteria, and health are the Hazda, a Tanzanian tribe that’s one of the last remaining hunter-gatherer communities in the world. They eat a spectacular 100 grams of fiber a day, all from food sources that are seasonally available. As a result, their gut biome is packed with diverse populations of bacteria, which ebb and flow with the changing of the seasons and the changes in their diet.

Eating low-fiber foods, or eating only a few types of fiber — such as the same fiber supplement every day — can harm your intestinal biome and the health of your protective mucus wall.

A study found that Introducing fecal contents of fourth-generation high-fiber-diet mice into the intestines of fourth-generation low-fiber mice, together with putting them on the high-fiber diet for two weeks, fully restored their bacterial profiles. Within 10 days of the procedure, the composition and diversity of the bacteria in the intestines of this group were indistinguishable from those of control mice.

This is why I tried high dose probiotics and high fiber, to hopefully keep them alive long enough to colonise, but it didn't show any signs of "working" until I corrected colon pH, which makes sense. I think I'm going to try a powerful herbal antimicrobial (cryptolepis) and another round of 500billion probiotics with a consistent high fiber+RS diet. The biofilm has pretty much stopped coming out, so I don't think that's my primary issue (80% resolved?), and it's not probiotics, it's not mucus wall thickness, it's not diet, it's not heavy metals, and it's not pH. Cryptolepis colonic is all I can think of, or possibly silver hydrosol. I'm getting desperate, I need carbs lol, but without the inflammation as I already had 3 polyps.

 

[Wishful]

@bizzoc , I'd like to point out that a lot of health articles that claim some sort of optimum something about human health probably only apply to a subset of humans. Some stated factors might be human average, ignoring the variations in healthy individuals. For a given diet, one person's optimally healthy stool is pale and soft, while another's is dark and firm. We're all different, and the important thing is to find out what is optimal for you as an individual. Does food x make you feel better or worse? For long-term health effects, I suppose we have to depend on good clinical studies, modified if necessary by individual reactions to foods.

Is there an optimum level of bile pigments for everyone? Probably not.

I take psyllium daily. I don't care what it does to stool colour, but I haven't had to strain to pass a stool since taking that supplement. Less wiping needed too, since they slide out cleanly. I hope some study doesn't come along saying that psyllium is harmful.