haha oops! (Totally beside the point though. I don't care if it's a rat or a mouse. Still the same suffering and still both would make a bad model for CFS!)Help. Please stop confusing rats and mice!
Last edited:
Welcome to Phoenix Rising!
Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.
To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.
haha oops! (Totally beside the point though. I don't care if it's a rat or a mouse. Still the same suffering and still both would make a bad model for CFS!)Help. Please stop confusing rats and mice!
If, without ongoing challenge, you can get:
1) Fatigue reducing activity level. (easily measurable - compare activity to unchallenged mice)
2) PEM - again - give them some physical exercise they would normally seek out for reward and see if you get PEM.
3) Sleep dysfunction - again easy.
4) Pain - more problematic.
5) Neurocognitive problems - problems in maze running, and interacting with others.
6) a) POTS, palor, nausea/IBS, urinary frequency
...
Many, or most of these seem measurable in mice.
haha oops! (Totally beside the point though. I don't care if it's a rat or a mouse. Still the same suffering and still both would make a bad model for CFS!)
ME PEM usually has a delay before it appears. Those poor worn out mice would be exhausted after their swim but I bet they arent testi
So how would they distinguish a mouse not wanting to move next day due to the normal affects of too much unused to exercise? from a mouse having actual proper ME/CFS PEM. Even a healthy person if you exercised them extremely hard would be sore next day and not want to move and we know that doesnt mean that person has ME/CFS PEM
Maybe someone should put in an information request exactly what tests they did on the mice to prove they had CFS? I so want to know. or was it just a tired mice study.
I scream with both if I see one run across the floor.
I am the opposite; I think rats, especially little young ones, are incredibly cute, and for me they have the most beautifully sensitive eyes. Our garden backs onto the rear of a few grocery shops, so occasionally you get little young rats from these shops appearing our garden (though mostly they are killed by the poison the local council puts down). To me they seem friendly and curious, but at the same time with a timidity; I find them very cute, and can completely understand why people can develop a rapport with a pet rat.
How gracious of you. I would call it utterly useless and irredeemable.The mouse models of ME/CFS used are quite dubious
Ekk! They call that swimming!But in fact it's something horrible like this:
Me too.i want to know how you get a rat to meet the CCC definition.
So you force a rodent to swim and it magically develops whatever disorder you wish to research? How convenient!re: the forced swimming model - they are the model used for research into depression too, as well as other illnesses.
It would include everyone who ever tried to become an Olympic athlete.Imagine if anyone could get CFS by some serious overexertion - even coerced overexertion like this? It would be pretty crowded here by now.
I still think that looking at hyperendurance athletes after they've just come off a 100 mile run might be interesting.It would include everyone who ever tried to become an Olympic athlete.
I would call it utterly useless and irredeemable.
That is to say, it is possible that the physical PEM of ME/CFS in some way resembles the state of physical exhaustion in healthy people (or animals) undertaking exhausting strenuous exercise.
That said, I doubt if this forced swim model captures any of the other characteristics of ME/CFS, such brain fog (concentration and memory problems, etc), orthostatic intolerance.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21892644 - this is an interesting model.
Heavy exercise during thermal shock (running in an insulated suit).
Immediately following the exercise, there were no cognitive deficits.
After 90 minutes, these really become quite notable.
(this makes finding other 'cognition / post exertion' papers hard as it confirms what the first couple I looked at said - that there is no change - because they look too soon for cognitive issues).