Ron Davis's Metabolic trap and methylation/B12

[seamyb]

Does anybody know if there are any possible ways B12 might make a patient feel better in Ron Davis's model of ME?

I read about his metabolic trap theory, but can't even remember it, so if anybody can link to a good explanation, I'd appreciate it.

Am I making this up or did Ron say something like "ME is a B12 and biotin related disease"?

Edited to add: Is there anything we can try off the back of Ron's research to help with the metabolic trap? Something we can buy on Amazon? lol

 

[BrightCandle]

As far as I understand his theory is that Tryptophan has a maximum amount in the cell before the IDO1 gene stops converting it to Kynurenine in the cell. It is self limiting but it also requires a secondary gene to not function to get stuck. We don't yet know of any drug or herb extract that corrects the situation but Ron Davis is working through a list of all FDA approved drugs and herb extracts obtained from China to find anything that unlocks the trap.

 

[seamyb]

Ron Davis is working through a list of all FDA approved drugs and herb extracts obtained from China to find anything that unlocks the trap

This just increases my concerns that Ron Davis is not a young man. Hopefully he finds something soon.

So it's that tryptophan isn't converted to kynurenine with ME?

 

[bensmith]

I think its that t disalows k. Because of their relationship. Not really sure though. Does anybody know long testing will take, i read like months on reddit but has he said maybe? I have heard it is fasr.

yes i worrya bout uis age too.

 

[Reading_Steiner]

hopefully this one doesn't feel like its been abandoned like the nanoneedle thing and other things that were supposed to provide an objective diagnostic test for me/cfs worldwide. I think its been said before but, we are not a yeast sitting on a plate, we can change and interact with our environment, whats the chances that someone or many haven't already consumed something or put their body in a state where it would change back to state 1 of the bistable ?

 

[bensmith]

@Reading_Steiner honestly i oscillate so much. I’m so desperate I’m like yeah surely this will work. But in my heart of hearts, i feel what you have just said and there is like less than 1 percent chance we just stumble onto some heart med that somebow nobody with cfs ever took, oe was cured and somehow never told anybody. I mean i know people with cfs who have taken over 100 drugs. It doesnt make sense realistically for me, but i also dont claim to be thst smart or anywhere near davis either. Just seems it would be unprecedented at the very least.

hnoestky hope, and needing help to this degree, makes hope turn problematic for me personallyz.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

herb extracts obtained from China to find anything that unlocks the trap.

Can I just state that chinese herbs don't work in the way western science uses them. This concerns me- that they should be conferring with EXPERTs on chinese herbs.

they don't even use "extracts". We never use single herbs or even one form of herb. This is a failure to grasp synergistic aspects of a Holistic medical system.

Whatever, its all just so frustrating.

 

[bensmith]

@Rufous McKinney i got this vibe from a doctor as well, when i was searching cor some herb the other month.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

whats the chances that someone or many haven't already consumed something or put their body in a state where it would change back to state 1 of the bistable ?

I sort of hated rather agreeing with you right now.

I have taken for a considerable amount of time: 38 chinese traditional hervbs which target the basic Yin Deficiency, which is the BASIC thing wrong in my body, and often in others with similar- viral, fatigue issues.

And some of them are one's others around here hear rumors about and take on their own (not via a mix of herbs).

so maybe I just did not take enough of it (I always more or less UNDER DO whatever is a protocol....) If I had taken it at 4 times a day per instructions, instead of sometimes once, or sometimes twice.

I"ve been doing some of this stuff for-11 years at least and GOT MUCH WORSE during that time frame.

But these herbs DO help me feel better, less worse, symptoms less intense.

This concept I've heard of: sudden remission..I've never experienced..

 

[Rufous McKinney]

hopefully this one doesn't feel like its been abandoned like the nanoneedle thing

You'd think...some of us could keep track of a few details better than this!!! (beating up myself right now).

So we were waiting for a LARGER nannoneedle to be fabricated when COVID struck/closing the lab and the two companies who said they could make the new machine, were COVID stuck.

So that was to enable testing substances which change the signal. (generally, the something in the blood).

Then: they have created this Yeast which now HAS the IDO1 genetic impairment. thats pretty fascinating. So they can actually SEE: the yeast react to the drug that springs the trap.

So thats TWO different means of getting at ASPECTS of...correcting someting correctable.

But what happened to the nanno needle part?

 

[Reading_Steiner]

You'd think...some of us could keep track of a few details better than this!!! (beating up myself right now).

So we were waiting for a LARGER nannoneedle to be fabricated when COVID struck/closing the lab and the two companies who said they could make the new machine, were COVID stuck.

So that was to enable testing substances which change the signal. (generally, the something in the blood).

Then: they have created this Yeast which now HAS the IDO1 genetic impairment. thats pretty fascinating. So they can actually SEE: the yeast react to the drug that springs the trap.

So thats TWO different means of getting at ASPECTS of...correcting someting correctable.

But what happened to the nanno needle part?

It could be prioritization of resources, Davis knows him and his associated team have limited personnel, money, equipment, for the purposes of generating a theory as to what might be happening, the basic device might have been sufficient. Someone with a lot of experience in a field can have a sort of intuition as to whether pursuing something like the 'something in the blood' would be likely to lead to a breakthrough or treatment. My perspective is that having such a device would improve the results of future ( and currently doing ) studies, because you could rule out people that don't actually have me/cfs but have another disease with similar symptoms, or possibly pick out subtypes, something like that, so in the long run it would be good, that's of course assuming that it is what they thought it was, a specific biomarker, but in the short term it might consume a lot of resources that could go to quicker things like what they are doing with the yeast, I can only guess this is whats happening. And yes the recent worldwide events have been terrible for trying to get electronics, especially video cards, but bicycles, wood, lithium batteries etc are also affected, I suppose its not surprising that it would affect high tech manufacturing even at the university level where its low volume stuff.

 

[Reading_Steiner]

@Reading_Steiner honestly i oscillate so much. I’m so desperate I’m like yeah surely this will work. But in my heart of hearts, i feel what you have just said and there is like less than 1 percent chance we just stumble onto some heart med that somebow nobody with cfs ever took, oe was cured and somehow never told anybody. I mean i know people with cfs who have taken over 100 drugs. It doesnt make sense realistically for me, but i also dont claim to be thst smart or anywhere near davis either. Just seems it would be unprecedented at the very least.

hnoestky hope, and needing help to this degree, makes hope turn problematic for me personallyz.

some of us have had a bit of success ( touchwood ) with a few things recently, I feel like the net is closing in,
if its a natural part of the world and not something paranormal it cant hide forever when exposed to proper scientific scrutiny. I hope you are able to stabilize naturally without having to hope for something new, but I know not everyone is that lucky.

 

[bensmith]

thanks, have never been meds or
Bust for me. But i hipe
For ron i guess.

 

[seamyb]

some of us have had a bit of success ( touchwood ) with a few things recently

Oh do tell?

 

[Rufous McKinney]

not something paranormal it cant hide forever when exposed to proper scientific scrutiny

Thats a really good point to keep in mind.

My perspective is that having such a device would improve the results of future ( and currently doing ) studies, because you could rule out people that don't actually have me/cfs but have another disease with similar symptoms, or possibly pick out subtypes,

YES.....we need that dang nannoneedle beefed up machine.

 

[andyguitar]

Can I just state that chinese herbs don't work in the way western science uses them

Yes a good point, but as it's lab research it's the quickest, cheapest and safest way of finding a compound that has an effect. If a compound is found, then testing it on humans will be a long way off. You cant just give it to people and hope for the best.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

You cant just give it to people and hope for the best.

I don't view chinese herbs as needing testing. But thats fine if thats what Dr. Davis wants to do.

I'll be gone from here before these things ever happen. And again, herbs can't be patented ethically. No company is going to: go after them unless they can invent some patentabel delivery system.

Meanwhile- something correcting the signal- may still yield no viable treatment. In situ, etc. Due to side effects or the other variables. didn't they use Cromylyn sodium and it corrected the signal?

 

[junkcrap50]

I think its that t disalows k. Because of their relationship. Not really sure though. Does anybody know long testing will take, i read like months on reddit but has he said maybe? I have heard it is fasr.

Probably a few months for the actual testing of all the compounds, if someone is devoted to it full time. But probably 1 year before the publish the results of the yeast study. Have to compile and analyze data, which takes more time than I understand. And probably will have to do additional larger experiments that focus on any successful drugs found. Maybe if they find a drug or supplement that works and is very safe, the news /name of the supplement will leak. But only if it's safe.

I think it will likely have to be a combination of drugs or treatments. Like combine it with oxygen/HBOT to substrate upregulate IDO or with kynurenine (they're doing a study on it), while giving the drug.

whats the chances that someone or many haven't already consumed something or put their body in a state where it would change back to state 1 of the bistable ?

Most likely it will be some random drug that no one would have though of using, like suramin. Or in the case of COVID, ivermectin (antiparasitic), nitazoxanide (antiparasitic), fluvoxamine (anti-anxiety drug), colchicine (a gout drug), enzalutamide (androgen inhibitor for prostate cancer). In covid's case, we understand how covid works, so it helped select and find drugs to test and confirm. But we don't know the mechanism of ME/CFS; if we did, it'd be easier to find drugs.

 

[bensmith]

Ivermectin helped my pem a lot. My pem was near complete mental before this last crash.

yes that sounds reasonable.

 

[junkcrap50]

Ivermectin helped my pem a lot. My pem was near complete mental before this last crash.

Can you clarify what you mean by "PEM was near complete mental before this last crash". Do you mean, all previous PEM's were only mental PEM/cognitive PEM but not physical. And now this last crash is your first physical PEM? Or do you mean, ivermectin cured your cognitive PEM but not physical PEM?