Ron Davis: Preliminary data shows problems with energy metabolism

[Ben H]

This is his theory, @Ben Howell , his hypothesis. You will note in the autism piece that treatment which conformed to this theory only was effective for a while.

But it is a GOOD theory, and he may be right.

ETA: We cross-posted, and we seem to both agree he is just theorizing.

Agreed. But for Suramin to have an effect at all is quite amazing. It lends credence to the hypothesis. The fact that it is implicated in M.E by OMF reinforces that for me, with Davis being so careful and meticulous, and the outstanding scientist he is. He couldn't (and wouldn't) afford to make such a strong statement so I think there is a lot untold with CDR, that has been uncovered with metabolomics.

Like I say, we just have to wait for the research.

B

 

[lansbergen]

Thats not correct. It's purigenic signalling causing the persistent CDR. Danger is what causes the CDR in the first place. Not the persistence.

Not trying to be a jackass, but it's important the concept is referred accurately.B

I think the danger (the infection) is still present.

 

[cmt12]

Thats not correct. It's purigenic signalling causing the persistent CDR. Danger is what causes the CDR in the first place. Not the persistence.

Not trying to be a jackass, but it's important the concept is referred accurately.


B

There are two dangers: the first is the trigger which can be a variety of stressors. The second danger is what maintains the stress response. You can say the first trigger "awakens" the real problem. This view explains spontaneous remission of symptoms as the real problem fluctuates from "asleep" and "awake".

A purigenic signaling problem can't explain spontaneous remission and relapses. A danger going back and forth from hidden to present explains it.

 

[paul80]

CDR= Cell danger response.

CDR is an evolutionary metabolic response to stressors that exceed the threshold for homeostasis. Be it viral, bacterial, psychological etc. Anything that could kill the cell.

It's a totally normal response. It releases metabolic intermediates ATP and ADP, Krebs cycle intermediates, oxygen, and reactive oxygen species.

This is proposed to be a short lived event and is reversed by regenerative pathways once the danger has been dealt with.

If this persists abnormally, whole body metabolism and normal energy production, gut microbiome are disturbed.


The main point is that a continued CDR is not a normal event, and could have dramatic consequences.



B

I see. So is this a part of the immune system?

 

[Ben H]

I think the danger (the infection) is still present.

It may well be, but that's not the answer to the question that was asked.


B

 

[Ben H]

I see. So is this a part of the immune system?

As mitochondria feature in immune cells, yes (hence how it could be so multi systemic).


B

 

[lansbergen]

It may well be, but that's not the answer to the question that was asked.B

After the danger has been eliminated or neutralized, a choreographed sequence of anti-inflammatory and regenerative pathways is activated to reverse the CDR and to heal.

What happens when the neutralisation can not be preserved?

 

[Ben H]

There are two dangers: the first is the trigger which can be a variety of stressors. The second danger is what maintains the stress response. You can say the first trigger "awakens" the real problem. This view explains spontaneous remission of symptoms as the real problem fluctuates from "asleep" and "awake".

A purigenic signaling problem can't explain spontaneous remission and relapses. A danger going back and forth from hidden to present explains it.

If we are talking about the CDR response, and quoting Dr Naviaux's paper, then sticking to his explanation of what causes a persistent CDR is probably apt.

Perhaps the danger i.e. Viral, bacterial when treated (in the case of 'chronic' Lyme or EBV) with abx or antivirals does indeed have an influence on the CDR. Hence why some with M.E get better on antivirals etc.

But in Naviauxs paper, which was referenced, it's purigenic signalling. This is also backed up with his trial of Suramin and other antipurigenics.

You can't categorically say that 'a danger going back and forth from hidden to present explains it'. That's far too vague. And unproven. It may be the case for some, but there is no evidence of that yet with regards to CDR. There is for antipurigenics.

B

 

[Ben H]

What happens when the neutralisation can not be preserved?

With regards to CDR, no one knows.

If CDR persists abnormally, then it may affect the immune system (is likely to) and you may not be able to control an otherwise 'normal infection'. Hence neutralisation would not be maintained. CDR could very well be the reason neutralisation is not maintained, and the reactivated viruses we find etc.

Or it may not be. But again, in Dr Naviauxs paper it's purigenic signalling maintaining CDR, and with antipurigenics to back that up. That's more evidence than 'the danger is still present'.

Hopefully we will find out with Davis research. Maybe it will require antipurigenics and antivirals etc. Or a different drug entirely. We don't know.

B

 

[lansbergen]

Hopefully we will find out with Davis research.

Yes and in the mean time I will stick to what works best for me.

 

[paul80]

Ok i think i understand it enough now to be hopeful.

Thanks for the explanation.

I hope we get some results from the research team this year.

 

[Ben H]

Yes and in the mean time I will stick to what works best for me.

I wouldn't disagree at all with that! If you've found something that works, that is awesome, and you'd be mad not to use it. Many of us havnt though.


B

 

[cmt12]

If we are talking about the CDR response, and quoting Dr Naviaux's paper, then sticking to his explanation of what causes a persistent CDR is probably apt.

Perhaps the danger i.e. Viral, bacterial when treated (in the case of 'chronic' Lyme or EBV) with abx or antivirals does indeed have an influence on the CDR. Hence why some with M.E get better on antivirals etc.

But in Naviauxs paper, which was referenced, it's purigenic signalling. This is also backed up with his trial of Suramin and other antipurigenics.

You can't categorically say that 'a danger going back and forth from hidden to present explains it'. That's far too vague. And unproven. It may be the case for some, but there is no evidence of that yet with regards to CDR. There is for antipurigenics.

B

I'm not reasoning this out by gathering evidence and moving forward with a hypothesis. That won't work because that which maintains the stress response (trauma) is hidden from scientific investigation. I'm working backwards from already understanding the answer.

When all that can be seen visually are symptoms, then any hypothesis on what is the first cause will be a symptom. Would you agree with that?

 

[halcyon]

I don't see any damage to the mitochondia 'only' dysfunction just like all the other problems they have found in ME/CFS. Dysfunctions... I think you can find dysfunction in the mitochondira if you have the flu too. It doesn't say anything at this point.

There actually is damage to mitochondria in this disease, as shown by Mina Behan in the early 1990s.

 

[Janet Dafoe]

Hey @Sasha where is that post of yours. I think you win quote of the year when you said Ron Davis is the Mick Jagger of ME/CFS research right now. You had me on the floor with that. I hope someone tells Ron Davis and it gives him a chuckle.

Best line! It's so true.

OMG! I'm married to Mick Jagger! How cool is that! lol

 

[Janet Dafoe]

I guess you have already tested for microbial pathogens? I have Borrelia and am starting to be cured using antibiotics.

What has really surprised me is that the herx Reactions on bacterial cell death feel EXACTLY like the PEM I used to experience after exercise. (And others here have reorted the same thing)

The only difference is that the herx occurs 4 hours after I take the antibiotics, whereas PEM occrred from 24 to 36 hours after exercise (in the days when I could actually exercise).

So could PEM be a form of herx reaction?

Could Whitney be suffering from non-stop herx reactions?

Would such non-stop reactions damage the functioning of his mitochondria?

I'm sure you have already done this, but Next Generation Sequencing could be done, using bacterial primers, on Whitney's blood?

Ron has personally sequenced Whitney's entire genome and has also checked via sequencing for snips of DNA matching any virus/bacteria/parasite known to man, and has not found anything unusual.

 

[adreno]

Suramin looks like a nasty drug, though:

There is a greater than 50% chance of adrenal cortical damage, but only a smaller proportion will require lifelong corticosteroid replacement.

 

[Ben H]

Suramin looks like a nasty drug, though:

Yea, it's a pretty serious drug. It was only used short term in the mouse study.


B

 

[Mel9]

There actually is damage to mitochondria in this disease, as shown by Mina Behan in the early 1990s.

That is interesting
Has anyone tried that recently?

 

[Seven7]

any virus/bacteria/parasite known to man, and has not found anything unusual.

The theory some have (see the gut thread) is that the disbiosis + leaky gut in the gut allows migration of "good bacteria" that becomes pathogenic in the body, so the search should measure anything they find even when consider "normal" would be interesting to see the levels.


https://gutpathogens.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1757-4749-5-3