Riddled with Lactic acid?

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,454
Likes
4,633
I don´t know a good way of reducing it (some people have tried bicarbonate of soda), but I have an inkling of what might be causing it. I´m going to write a blog about it later today.
 

Solstice

Senior Member
Messages
641
Likes
2,109
I don´t know a good way of reducing it (some people have tried bicarbonate of soda), but I have an inkling of what might be causing it. I´m going to write a blog about it later today.
bicarbonate worked like a charm for me.
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,454
Likes
4,633
I think I´ve tried it, but only a little, as I´m worried about the effects on the gut.
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
1,794
Likes
2,841
bicarbonate worked like a charm for me.
Do you have some proof that bicarbonates was efficient to lower your blood lactates?

I mean: can you show your blood lactates prior and after the bicarbonates therapy?

For the test to be significant, it must be done:
-fasting
-post prandial at 90 mn, always with the same Foods and quantities
-post exercice at 5 and 30 mn
 
Messages
28
Likes
111
And CBT is often used to treat ME patients. Without a citation to a study or other documentation showing effectiveness, it's not a useful statement.
It's not "not a useful statement," but it could be a better supported statement. It was written and edited by MDs, and the article contains references, albeit not tied to that specific treatment. It would be nice to see such support (and from the folks recommending bicarbonate and D-ribose), but presumably the highly educated authors and editors didn't include citrate at random.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Likes
45,583
It would be nice to see such support (and from the folks recommending bicarbonate and D-ribose), but presumably the highly educated authors and editors didn't include citrate at random.
The same is assumed of CBT. We need evidence, not appeals to authority.
 
Messages
28
Likes
111
The same is assumed of CBT. We need evidence, not appeals to authority.
Your example of CBT is not apt, since there are peer-reviewed research articles supporting it. They're just faulty.

If you require that every source provide conclusive evidence for everything before you try it, that's your choice. But for me a doctor's published opinion, edited by other doctors, is not useless and actually rates higher than a fairly anonymous person's comment on a web forum. Thus I share such things. And citrate's on my list of things to explore.
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
1,794
Likes
2,841
@Solstice in fact, the use of bicarbonates in hyperlactatemia has raised some controversy in emergency cares...

https://lifeinthefastlane.com/ccc/lactic-acidosis/

but if you wish to try you can easily do your own trial by monitoring your lactates levels, it is the good thing of this blood parameter: it is as the same time the only marker we have an access too, and we are lucky to be able to test it ourselves at home!

So we should try different protocols and see what works!

For those who suffer from postprandial hyperlactatemia, we could also test different foods (raw, coocked, etc) and see what happens!

I am doing my own trials for three weeks now, and I hope to be able to give some conclusions about my findings soon.

I have noticed that I have hyperlactatemia after a single tablet of Alkaseltzer (320 mg Salicylic acid that is mitochondrial toxic + sodium bicarbonate). In my case, the bicarbonates in this tablet didn't protect me against the salycilate toxicity and from the hyperlactatemia. But I didn't do any trial with the same amount of salicylic acid without the bicarbonates (that's too bad i didn't do it, i should have!)

In this thread, I put links to an articles that proposes a way to manage hyperlactatemia with scientific evidences background:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-lactic-acidosis-and-drugs.52382/#post-866526

The protocols proposed to support mitochondrial function in order to dicrease the lactates is

"therapy with agents suggested to "support" mitochondrial function, such as carnitine, riboflavin, thiamine, and ubiquinone (coenzyme Q-10).

and the pyruvate dehydrogenase stimulant dichloracetic acid (DCA).[5]

Use of thiamine (vitamin B1) is appropriate if alcohol-related triggering of lactic acidosis is thought likely. In metformin-related lactic acidosis, insulin is required.[5] Additional agents that have been suggested as adjuncts to the management of NRTI-related lactic acidosis include oral or intravenous riboflavin (vitamin B2),[20,21] carnitine, and ubiquinone.[22] Riboflavin has been associated with possible benefit in some cases, although it is unclear from these reports that recovery had not already begun when riboflavin was introduced."



I have started a supplements program with thiamine + Carnitine + CoQ10, and my Alkasetzer tolerance test has improved a lot, I can show you my results and give you details if you are interested.

We have a lot to explore in this lactate area, so everyone willing to do his own trial is welcome!
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
1,794
Likes
2,841
Then you should be seeing a doctor, not making assumptions about the cause and blindly seeking a treatment. It's very easy for hospitals and even most clinics to run a quick blood test to see if lactate is elevated.
yes in theory, this is very easy, but if you do a fasting blood lactatemia on a CFS patient (this is the only thing most doctors are trained to investigate , you may find it in the normal ranges, which doesn't mean there is not a lactatemia problem...)
Anyway, I agree it is difficult to rely on symptoms, because intermittent hyperlactatemia is not recognized as a problem by medical world.
Only chronic hyperlactatemia associated with lactic acidosis is recognized to be symptômatic with problems like
"vomiting, fatigue, myalgia, nausea, diarrhea, abdominal distension, weight loss, or dyspnea".

This is why I believe we have to give evidences that our chronic intermittent hyperlactatemia is associated with some of our symptoms (fatigue, myalgia, nausea, and maybe some others), even if no evidence ofassociated lactic acidosis.
This symptomatic hypaerlactemia maybe either from cause to effect, or either because lactates are a marker of our mitochondrial inability to adapt, which may produce other metabolites to accumulate and to make us sick, independently of lactates levels.
 

Attachments

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
1,794
Likes
2,841
@Gday @pattismith "...A MELAS patient was treated with oral nicotinamide for 5 months. The blood NAD content representing the NAD + NADH pool of erythrocytes rose 24 fold and the blood lactate + pyrovate concentration fell by 50%."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9309702
thank you @rwac, I do take Nicotinamide as well, but I'm not sure that our syndrome is similar to MELAS, and several different mitochondrial diseases are rallied under the MELAS denomination.

For example, in the MELAS syndrome, Nitric Oxyd is supposed to be depleted in the brain causing local arterial vasoconstriction. Is it the same in CFS?

Riboflavin and CoQ10 have helped some MELAS patients too.

other drugs that are under investigations that could be of interest for us to improve our mitochondrial activity and decrease our Lactates:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/946864-medication
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/946864-medication#2