Regarding ketosis

Davsey27

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I was just curious I have heard that persons with ME have difficulties with using fat as energy

I know Ron davis mentioned there are problems in how many of us utilize carbs and fats

Just curious how do you know if you can utilize fats as energy instead of glucose with ME

Is it just trial and error?

Thank you
 
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Thats an excellent Question. Something I have wondered about, myself.

I'd welcome some help understanding that too.

What does it "look like" if we aren't using fats for energy well?

I know my body is really not cooperating with simple carbs. Might as well poison myself and get it over with.
 

BrightCandle

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Fasting will tell you pretty quickly in my experience. If after 20 hours of not eating anything you feel less energetic or your brain works worse then you have some problem processing fats. Normal healthy people feel clear headed and similar energy when in Ketosis, I used to before I got ill. Nowadays I loose energy, I get more brain fog when I fast and everything just ends up worse.
 
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I was just curious I have heard that persons with ME have difficulties with using fat as energy

I know Ron Davis mentioned there are problems in how many of us utilize carbs and fats

Just curious how do you know if you can utilize fats as energy instead of glucose with ME

Is it just trial and error?

Thank you
I cannot speak for the the the entire ME space, but this is pretty clear at least in Long Covid, with multiple papers reporting it. The issue is impaired fatty acid oxidation. Here is one example:

Decreased Fatty Acid Oxidation and Altered Lactate Production during Exercise in Patients with Post-acute COVID-19 Syndrome https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/10.1164/rccm.202108-1903LE

And the issue is related to the impaired cellular oxygen uptake we have, as this is an aerobic process. This is the therapeutic target of the ongoing Bocidelpar trial.

I am assuming we would see an increasing level of circulating free fatty acids in these patients (aka dyslipidemia). This is very easy to spot.

Things like fasting or deep ketosis will actually upregulate the fatty acid oxidation. I know some of the members here benefit from being in that state. It is worth noting though that ketosis will have some undesirable side effects for people with orthostatic intolerance. Electrolyte imbalance being the biggest issue for me. If you can handle being on the edge of dehydration the entire time, this may be a good strategy.

There is also a drug called Cardarine that works like magic in fixing this issue. But the problem is that it is carcinogenic.
 

Davsey27

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I cannot speak for the the the entire ME space, but this is pretty clear at least in Long Covid, with multiple papers reporting it. The issue is impaired fatty acid oxidation. Here is one example:

Decreased Fatty Acid Oxidation and Altered Lactate Production during Exercise in Patients with Post-acute COVID-19 Syndrome https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/10.1164/rccm.202108-1903LE

And the issue is related to the impaired cellular oxygen uptake we have, as this is an aerobic process. This is the therapeutic target of the ongoing Bocidelpar trial.

I am assuming we would see an increasing level of circulating free fatty acids in these patients (aka dyslipidemia). This is very easy to spot.

Things like fasting or deep ketosis will actually upregulate the fatty acid oxidation. I know some of the members here benefit from being in that state. It is worth noting though that ketosis will have some undesirable side effects for people with orthostatic intolerance. Electrolyte imbalance being the biggest issue for me. If you can handle being on the edge of dehydration the entire time, this may be a good strategy.

There is also a drug called Cardarine that works like magic in fixing this issue. But the problem is that it is carcinogenic.
So essentially because there is impaired fatty acid oxidation being in ketosis or doing intermittent fasting can be problematic in most individuals with ME?

Thank You
 

Springbok1988

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Using a ketone blood test meter after eating a very low carb diet for around a week is a quantitative method.
When I stay on a strict keto diet I have the opposite problem as most people. My ketone levels get dangerously high. Instead of eating 20 g of carbs or less each day I had to consume at least 50 g. The keto diet used to really help with pain but didn’t give a boost in energy or help with brain fog. My pain symptoms have improved since then and I’m no longer keto.
 

Garz

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i have been diagnosed with CFS and fibromyalgia as i suffered extreme fatigue and PEM after any exertion

i have been eating a wholefood keto diet for 2-3 years now - the first 3-4 weeks are a bit rough -
as it takes our bodies some time to learn how to burn fats and regulate things properly

i had some mild headaches, brain fog, food cravings and cramps initially - but energy was much better almost immediately
i also have to eat a lot of sea salt to compensate for the higher demand on keto diets - 4 good sized pinches on each meal seems to be about right - otherwise i can get cramps

my energy and pain is much better on it than off - and my recovery only actually started once i changed to this diet - it was one of the things that helped me start to turn the corner.

my fiancé had an even better response, she was sick with the same thing and started running 2.5miles within a week of changing to a keto diet! it was amazing. i was highly sceptical until i saw that -at a time when i could hardly move from the sofa and every small task felt like a mountain to climb. so i had to try it.
 

belize44

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@Garz; I am glad to read that. I don't know how old you are but I am officially a senior citizen next year. My body seems to have trouble adapting to change, and even medications that I normally took with no problem have started to cause problems. I ask your age because I am trying to figure out if aging, in conjunction with CFIDS, makes ketosis harder to adapt to. Of course you don't have to answer that, or maybe give me an age range?
 

Garz

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@belize44 sure - no problem
i am 53 years old - male - 190lbs - ill since feb 2015 - 50-60% recovered to my former function

i am sure many things get harder as we get older - and some people adapt to ketosis better than others

but i also notice many people who try it come up with many reasons why they cannot do it - even if it in fact helps them

i think it comes down to us humans are hardwired to want to eat sugar and carbs for energy - as we evolved in an environment where energy was scarce - and so we had to have powerful biological drives to seek that out.

so to avoid carbs when they are everywhere in the modern world - is hard - it takes effort, quite a lot of effort.
not everyone wants to do that - and some do create beliefs that justify not doing it

not everyone of course - and I'm not saying that's the case for you - as i don't know you
but i do find it interesting that in my experience something like 30% or more of people i see who try Keto diets seem to go down this path.

the human psyche is a funny thing
 

belize44

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I agree about being hard wired for carbs. The commitment that I made, was to only eat healthy carbs such as sweet potatoes, squash, and air popped corn now and then. The rest of my diet is composed of grass fed beef, organic pork and chicken and very few vegetables besides those mentioned. Once a month I indulge in a sweet treat. I no longer eat seafood because of the pollution of our oceans. I find that avoiding white sugar for months has made me indifferent to it, which helps a lot; those cravings are non existent now!