Red and near-infrared light therapy, LEDs

Johannes

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From everything I've read, 20 mins a day should be the maximum, but if your light source is on the weak side, maybe more is OK ..... check how you feel, you'll know if you hvae to adjust time exposures ....
You are right about the 20 minutes but what does it actually mean.... So, the intencity of the radiation makes a difference as you mentioned (weak light source vs. powerfull one). Therefore, one should calculate how many joules per square cm one gets. 100mW/cm2 for 20 minutes is 120 Joules/cm2. With less power than 100mW/cm2 one needs more treatment time.

If you have a LED panel in front of you, the sides of the body don't get almost any radiation. I asked someone, who has worked with PBM studies, done one study himself and red lots of studies and he said that 20 minutes should be the maximum time per square centimeter with the power of 100mW/cm2. This means that every square cm of the body can be radiated 20 minutes. So, in my case, I turn 90 degrees in order to cover also the sides of my body, which should provide me approximately 80mW/cm2 to every cell of my body for 20 minutes a day from top of my head to my knees. Therefore, I am not in the upper limit yet with 4 x 10 minutes x 2 times a day.
 
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You are right about the 20 minutes but what does it actually mean....
From what I've read, it means total treatment time for all parts of the body, inclusive, shouldn't exceed 20 min's .... so in your case it would be 5 mins front, 5 min's left, 5 mins right, 5 min's back ....

Again, you'll know better what the signs and signals your body is giving you mean, and can adjust accordingly ....
 

Johannes

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From what I've read, it means total treatment time for all parts of the body, inclusive, shouldn't exceed 20 min's .... so in your case it would be 5 mins front, 5 min's left, 5 mins right, 5 min's back ....

Again, you'll know better what the signs and signals your body is giving you mean, and can adjust accordingly ....
I do trust this guy I mentioned. He has gone through 3700 scientific articles about Photobiomodulation in order to find if they are trustworthy. He has good knowledge on PBM. I also wrote an email to couple of NIR manufactorer, one of them being Joovv and asked about treatment times for the whole body. In their internet page they say:

"10-15 Minute Treatment Times: 10-minute treatments at 4-6 inches from your device is optimal. 15-20 minutes for symptomatic areas may be beneficial, but beyond that, the evidence points to diminishing returns (your cells can only absorb so much light at once). For this reason, we recommend you allow at least 6 hours between treatments of the same area."

So they talk about max 20 minutes to each treated area. This would mean 20 minutes to front and 20 minutes to back in the morning and the same in the late afternoon. I do now 10 minutes to front and 10 minutes to back twice a day.

Well, NIR did not affect my creatine level after five weeks of therapy. But I noticed something interesting. It may be that I spoiled the whole thing by radiating myself too much, but this therapy had another effect. I started to sunbath a week ago. Normally, it would have made me very tired an nausiated. This also happened when I started my photobiomodulation therapy as I have told earlier. But this spring I didn't feel tired and nausiated at all. Also, I had no problems to sit in the sunshine for a couple of hours. Last Spring I could only lie in the mattress in the sunshine for an hour at first. Last Spring it took about six weeks before I could sit in the sunshine without any problems, so Photobiomodulation is starting to effect my health, giving me more energy.
 
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I'm so glad you're gettng such good results.

I do now 10 minutes to front and 10 minutes to back twice a day.
I went back and checked my sources, just to make sure I hadn't misunderstood, not a totally unexplored territory for me, but it was really clear: 20 min's, total treatment time, regardless of how many areas being treated, so what you're doing right now, with 10mins front, 10 mins back, twice a day, is optimal. From what I know, and it's only academic, more than that starts having reverse effects, not just no additional benefit.

The bottom line, tho, is how it works for you specifically, and it clearly is working like a house afire, so ya'll rock on. It's really good news !!!
Well, NIR did not affect my creatine level after five weeks of therapy
Don't give up hope. Again, from my purely academic knowledge, it apparently sometimes takes longer for the deeper benefits, the systemic alterations, so they may still be building, no?


But all that aside, mad respect for your having had the courage to try something on a sort of striking-out-into-the-unknown, explorer's level: going someplace you've never gone, doing something that offers no real guarantee as to the results and really, no control over them other than the very basic.

Well done !!! And kudos !!! And please keep updating me, and everyone reading this thread, yes?

Onward and upward :rocket::rocket:!!!
 

PatJ

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I'm also glad to hear about Johannes' continuing progress.

I've now worked up to 10 minutes per day using the NIR wrap over my kidneys. I'm still feeling more fatigued than normal, including mental fatigue. Working up slowly seems to have let me avoid the low BP effects that I had previously.

Is it known if pulsing helps? e.g. using NIR light for 6 days with the 7th off? or 5 days on, 2 days off?
 
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Is it known if pulsing helps? e.g. using NIR light for 6 days with the 7th off? or 5 days on, 2 days off?
I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but I think I've read that it doesn;t, so long as you keep your daily doses on the acceptable, lower side, ie 20 min's total, all sites .....


Logically, it seems to me that giving your body a short break between series of treatments might be a good thing, letting it adjust to whatever alterations and improvements have been instituted in the previous series of treatments before starting up on another.
 

PatJ

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Logically, it seems to me that giving your body a short break between series of treatments might be a good thing, letting it adjust to whatever alterations and improvements have been instituted in the previous series of treatments before starting up on another.
I started wondering about it because the naturopath Dr. Christopher noticed that his patients would improve more quickly with a 6 day treatment, 1 day rest cycle. He was treating with mainly herbal remedies and diet, and his time was before NIR light treatment, but it seems like a sensible approach for the reason you described.
 
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but it seems like a sensible approach for the reason you described.
You're very generoius @PatJ ..... it was, after all, you who raised the possibility of it's advantages. I just chimed in with my nickels worth. Inflation. It's a biatch .....

But I'll take it, and I thank you for the very kind shout out. I needed one today, after beating my head bloody against several stone-and-brick walls in other parts of these fora.

It was truly balm to all those lingering sore spots :):) :thumbsup: :hug::hug::hug: :heart:...
 

Johannes

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At the end of April, I have been usually very tired because of fixig my boat. It takes approximately ten trips to the shipyard. And I work about 3 hours everytime. One way about 55 minutes with my own car. So altogether, some six hours. Sorry my english, my brains don't still work well after such a big effort, yesterday.

So, compared to previous years, I feel a lot better. I am not as tired as last year, after a trip to shipyard. I am tired but one reason for that is, because my muscles are so week after laying in a bed and sofa for so many months. My back muscles hurt most. But they recover in two days!! And week by week I can work more. I over-do myself. As usual, It is not easy to figure out how much one can work. If I didn't fix my boat, I bet I would feel quite well. All my other symptoms are gone except chemical sensitivity, some minor cognitive problems and fatigue. It seems that PBM therapy has helped me a lot but I think it could help me even more now that I will be able to use imy red and near-infrared lamp during the whole year.

I noticed the biggest difference when I started to sunbath. In just two weeks, I became so well that I could start my work at the shipyard. I was weak at first but as time went by, I gained strenght. In earlier years this process in sunhine took some 2-2,5 months and I was still very tired for a week after my work at the boat but now I am not that tired more than 1 to 2 days after work. So PBM therapy has done something to quicken the process. Now there was approximate three months worth of PBM therapy as I started my therapy on the 9th of March. I started to sunbath about 2 weeks ago, when I also reduced my PBM. I am sure, I would get better faster if I didn't over do so much but fixing my boat gives me good feelings and my muscles grow :)

This gives me hope! For the first time in eight years, I am sure that in the following winter, I will no longer have to be bedbound. It may be that vitamin D injections also give me more energy.

I will be back next autumn if there is nothing new to report. Have you guys already tried PBM?

Have a nice summer!
 
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Sorry my english, my brains don't still work well after such a big effort, yesterday.
Your English is near-perfect, and far better than I'm betting most of us could do in your native language ....
My back muscles hurt most.
But the fact that they recover in a couole of days after such a long period of non- to limited use is fantastic !!!!
I am sure, I would get better faster if I didn't over do so much but fixing my boat gives me good feelings and my muscles grow :)
That's two kinds of essential therapy right there: the pleasure and satisfaction of fixing up a boat that you'll actually be able to use this summer, and buffing up those muscles so you'll look and feel good while using it ....
This gives me hope! For the first time in eight years, I am sure that in the following winter, I will no longer have to be bedbound.
Omigod, better and better !!!!
I will be back next autumn if there is nothing new to report. Have you guys already tried PBM?
WHAT ?!?!?!?? You're just going to post and disappear into the sun on your newly refurbished boat?


I feel so used :aghhh::aghhh: :D....

And soooooo happy for you ....

I haven't started PBM yet, still slowly looking into various options with not too much consistent, dependable energy with which to do that. But your story has heartened and encouraged me, and when I do start, I'll post my progress either here in your thread or start a new one, Either way, you'll be able to find me ....

Have an absolutely glorious summer, @Johannes !!!! You've totally earned it .... and given all of us the gift of your experience in the process, so thank you for that :hug::hug: :woot::woot::woot: :thumbsup::thumbsup:!!!
 

Johannes

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Your English is near-perfect, and far better than I'm betting most of us could do in your native language ....
Thanks!!

WHAT ?!?!?!?? You're just going to post and disappear into the sun on your newly refurbished boat?
Well yes ;) We plan to live at the sea and archipelago the whole summer, away from corona virus. We lived at the sea last summer too. It means that there is no net and I will have no connection to internet all the time. But I may use internet when in harbours buying food, water and such.

And soooooo happy for you ....
Thank you again.

I haven't started PBM yet, still slowly looking into various options with not too much consistent, dependable energy with which to do that. But your story has heartened and encouraged me, and when I do start, I'll post my progress either here in your thread or start a new one, Either way, you'll be able to find me ....
I will be looking forward to you posts.

Have an absolutely glorious summer, @Johannes !!!! You've totally earned it .... and given all of us the gift of your experience in the process, so thank you for that :hug::hug: :woot::woot::woot: :thumbsup::thumbsup:!!!
Thank you! You too! But first the boat has to float. That happends next week, hopefully. The I need one week rest. And then, on the 20th of June....sails up! ⛵
 
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Johannes

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So, the boat floats ;)

It took me six weeks and ten trips to the shipyards to fix her. I was really exhausted one week after it but now, after two separate four day trips with her (and my wife and the dog), I feel OK. PBM therapy together with higher amounts of vitamin D injections have changed my life quite lot. I am usually feeling this well only after spending 6-8 weeks in shunshine at the sea. That is at the beginning of August.

Now I can sail about 2 to 3 hours every couple of days, walk with my dog two times daily, prepare food daily (although, I am too lazy to do that too often) and wash dishes and myself a few times a week. I can visit my friends an hour at the time, couple of times a week. But I can't do more. I can't clean my home or go in for other hobbies. I do photography when at sea. But this is so much more than I could do before. And now, I don't become tired after all this. I am not doing them all in the same day.

Things that make me tired now are: too much internet time, too much computer time, driving car more than half an hour at the time, sailing more than four hours every two days, being in the susnhine too much. My back muscles are very weak. I can sit only about three hours a day for now but during summer, my muscles will grow and there will be no problems to sit even six hours at the end of June. They are weak, because I have been bedpound for so many years between October and May.

I wish this gives you hope that PBM may help with CFS. It helped me atleast.
 
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Johannes

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Hello again!

Sorry about the long writing...

So, we have spent 20 days at sea this summer so far, with my wife and a dog. Day by day my body seems to heal a little by little due to vastly available energy from the sunshine. I tend to need a few days rest from sailing every seven or so days and so we come home to rest for 4 to 5 days. But just like last summer, I am sure, we can sail for three weeks without rest when my body is more healed. This is going to be around in the middle of August. We sail 2 to 4 hours a day.

I have got rid of most cognitive problems. My brains are working a lot better than in winter. One day I checked 5 page english-finnish translation for a book and didn't get tired. I felt that it was hard work but once I rested an hour or so, I was OK. Therefore, I stopped injecting methylcobalamin 5000 micrograms twice a week, without which I had had anxiousness, and a bad depression and brainfog in Spring, if I over excercised or used my brains too much. My quess is that improved Brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) production is a to blame for this. Its job is to fix brain cell membranes (myelin), like methyl cobalamin does too. When excess homocysteine (of CFS patients) destroys brain cells and their membranes, the previous prevent them doing so and fixes brain cells. Sunshine increases BDNF production a lot. The more you are in sunshine (or have PBM therapy) the more BDNF you get.

But my kidneys are not working better. According to lab tests, my kidneys are just fine but a little lazy. It shows in higher than normal creatine and uric acid levels and in the fact that I was just diagnosed gout. I have to change my diet. I have to cut my beer drinking and eat less protein, and some other changes too. Mainly stop drinking alcohol and I have to loose some weight too.

It should not be a big problem, because I used to drink alcohol for depression and anxiety but since I don't have them anymore, I know I can manage to cut my alcohol. According to my previous blood tests, some beer once a month shouldn't be a catastrophe, I think. And once I cut my alcohol, I loose weight too. After all, I am physically more active now than in Spring.

My diet has become more versatile too because my chemical sensitivity has got better. This too is due to sunshine. But sunshine is not all good for me. When the temperature rises too much, I seem to feel week. Some 24 degrees (Celsius) is fine. 27 degrees in the shadow is OK but in the sunshine not so fine.

My quess is that I have a broken gene that causes my kidney problems, just as I have a broken gene that influences my homocysteine levels. When I was well, my body was able to compensate the broken homocysteine gene but now, when I have lowered energy production, it can not compensate it anymore. I wonder why sun light affetcs so much to my homocysteine level but not creatine and uric acid levels. I will have blood test this monday to confirm that my homocysteine is normal. If it is, I don't have to inject methylcobalamin ever egain, because PBM therapy will then take care of this problem.

Sunshine affected positively to my depression and now I can even enjoy food, which tasted like cardboard a few months ago. I feel happy at the sea and in the nature, smelling fresh air and fragrance of various flowers and plants. Just seing small nice things, like a flower or rocks at the archibelago, brings me joy. And my sex life related hormones are working now well and I can enjoy that lost part of my life again. So, the change is quite inclusive (is that the right word here?)

This all is a lot and I am very gratefull and I feel blessed. I still can't do physically demanding tasks. My muscles are groving slowly but they are weak. I can sit now about two to three hours daily but four hour sailing is too much.

I am now quite sure that I will benefit also from UVB light and will be building a narrow band UVB treatment light panel with my friend who is an electrician. This will be around September. Together with red and near-red infrared light, I should be this "well" the whole year. If not, there are green and blue LED light panels in the market, to test.

My gut feeling is that when my body heals itself, it can use more energy to healing process which promotes even more healing. When my physical health will be better, it also promotes improved chemical health. What I mean is, by the summer 2021, I could be more well than I have been in years. Hopefully.

Here some pictures and info from finnish archipelago, encase you got interested:

https://www.visitfinland.com/coast-and-archipelago/


Have a nice summer! Or Winter, if you live in Australia!
 
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splusholia

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@YippeeKi YOW !! Finally red the thred you linked. It seems, that some benefit from photobiomodulation, others don't. But here were no one in that thred that had tried whole body photobiomodulation.

My quess is one would have to tryit for longer time and for whole body in order to get good effects. It may also be that photobiomodulation may help only some people like methylcobalamin injections do. With metcob it seems that people with genemutation in their methylation, may benefir from B12 injections as others that don't have these mutatuons don't react to B12. The body that is suffering ATP problems may not be able compensate these gene mutations, hence the symptoms typical to mutation in question. This is my educated quess.

I have asked many CFS patients whether they get more energetic at summer. Only some say they do. But is this because CFS patients in general spent their time indoor. It hasn't been easy for me to go out for sunshine. Almost every day lay down for a couple of hours untill only in two months to notice difference. I start in the beginning of April. And like some people described with nasal red light therapy, I too get very tired after the first doses of sunshine. Not only tired but nausiated. So, at first I have to be outside only 15 to 20 minutes. But the longer I exposure to sunshine during the first weeks, the less I have fatigue and nausea. In a month or so I can increase my time to one hour. And in June, I can stay at sunshine for two hours without any problems. In August even 5 to 6 hours is no problem.

So it may be that only few people benefit from photobiomodulation but it may also be that many, if they just had a change to try it for longer and for the whole body it would help. It would be possible to try this with sunshine if ones energy levels permit going outside and if one would have a possibility to lay down in a sunshine.
I just came across this thread and it is interesting to me. For the benefit of anyone reading this, I think sunshine really benefited me too. About three years into having profound/severe ME (bell scale 0) I decided that I needed to try and get sunlight. I just had a strong feeling that I could never get better if I stayed in a dark room. I thought it would be impossible, considering at this time I couldn’t even have the curtains open on a cloudy day. But I still wanted to try it. My mum bought me some wraparound dark glasses and helped me to get outside. I didn’t wear any clothes because I wanted full sun exposure. I stayed outside for a few minutes the first time and then when I came in I was so dizzy I was nearly sick and it took me days to get over it. But each time I tried it got a bit easier, and I ended up lying out in the sun for a few hours at a time. This wasn’t a cure for me but it tipped me into a state where my body seemed to begin healing as opposed to declining. Since then, over the years, I realise I have been getting less sunshine. I’m going to try and get more now. Thanks for this thread - really interesting.
 

Johannes

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Glad to hear that there are others who benefit subshine. :)

I got my blood test readings and they too show that I benefit from subshine. So this is not just my imagination!! :) My homocysteine, red cell folate and vitamin D 1.25 were normal. I no more have to inject methylcobalamine! Sunshine really does it for me. Day by day I feel better. I can now even do some light muscle exercise! But I do get tired if I do too much, but recover in a day or two. And I don't have any cognitive symptoms but if I try to sail or drive a car more than about 3 hours a day I have problems to concentrate. I make stupid mistakes or hit my self to stupid places in my boat. I hurt my toe, bite my lip, hurt my elbow and hit my head to...some places. And it hurts more than usually. But I understand, this is nothing extraordinary. Also, my muscle pain is now healthy and normal and I recover in a day or two. But I do need my sleep. About 8 to 10 hours a day. If I don't get enough sleep, I feel lousy, tired and I have fatigue.
 
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I am now quite sure that I will benefit also from UVB light and will be building a narrow band UVB treatment light panel with my friend who is an electrician. This will be around September. Together with red and near-red infrared light, I should be this "well" the whole year. If not, there are green and blue LED light panels in the market, to test.
Hiya @Johannes , and it's soooooo good to hear from you again, altho I'm irritated that I had to stumble across this thread by accident. So much for the 'Watch' function :meh::meh: :bang-head::bang-head::bang-head:.


Even better than just hearing from you, which would have been good enough all on its own, is knowing that you're doing so well with your sunshine cure, and that you were able to deduce what might help, and it actually did !!!! It gives hope to all of us ....

Thank you so much for your detailed, info-full post too, and for the video on the Finnish coast, about which I knew next to nothing .... it was lovely !!!
There seems to be plenty of evidence that red light therapy works and is not a fad or gimmick.
I totally agree, and am hard-pressed to figure out what the pooh-poohers are thinking .....
I have ordered a unit and will keep you updated on my progress.
Am still doing research myself, there are soooo mnay units available that it's really hard for me to parse thru the pros and cons of each. Plus there's that pre-purchase buyer's remorse thing (What if I chose the wrong one :nervous::nervous::nervous: :bang-head::bang-head:).


Which unit did you order, and if that's pushing the boundaries, just ignore the question, yes?
 

Johannes

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There seems to be plenty of evidence that red light therapy works and is not a fad or gimmick. I have ordered a unit and will keep you updated on my progress.
Glad to hear. Many have tried but with too small units and too short time. I have red about three CFS patients who have tried and clearly benefitted from PBM therapy. I already know one more patient who is going to try with a bigger unit as soon as she gets enough money to buy one. I will also report about others if I hear about them.
 

Johannes

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Hiya @Johannes ,

Even better than just hearing from you, which would have been good enough all on its own, is knowing that you're doing so well with your sunshine cure, and that you were able to deduce what might help, and it actually did !!!! It gives hope to all of us ....

Thank you so much for your detailed, info-full post too, and for the video on the Finnish coast, about which I knew next to nothing .... it was lovely !!!
thanks! Glad that somebody follows my threds.

I went backwards. I had really good appr. two weeks but then I suddenly started to get quite tired. Now I know why. The sun is not providing me enough something. Weather it is vitamin D (UVB) or red light or infrared or near-infrared, I don't know, but I know it is sunlight related. I know this because the Finnish weather forecast company reported that our UVB index is getting much lower. This means that any radiation from the sun is getting lower.

So, I came back from the sea to inject more vitamin D and to get more red light from my PBM lamp. This set back caused me typical symptoms of too little energy: muscle pain, head ache, stiff muscles which have problems to recover, some cognitive problems and food sensitivities.

If I am correct, this will pass in three to four days. I will let everybody know.