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Apparently R lipoic acid is more bioavailable than alpha Lipoic Acid. Has anyone tried both to see if it has a noticeable difference? Thanks.
R Lipoic Acid vs Alpha Lipoic Acid?
- Thread starter Jwarrior77
- Start date
- Tags alpha lipoic acid
Regular alpha-lipoic acid (ALA) is a racemic mixture of R-ALA and S-ALA. Only R-ALA is naturally found in the human body. There is some evidence that S-ALA may be harmful. Therefore, some people prefer to take R-ALA instead of regular ALA, which is a mixture of R-ALA with S-ALA.
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
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All clinical trials showing benefit from lipoic acid were with regular lipoic acid. Since it contains also half of R-ALA, and the price of R-ALA isn't even by far half that of usual, I've using regular only. Couldn't afford otherwise.
Would you be so kind to provide links?
Would you be so kind to provide links?
There was a study from the 1960's that found that very high-dose S-ALA was toxic when administered to thiamine-deficient rats:
https://www.nature.com/articles/207535a0.pdf
A 1997 study found that S-ALA increases insulin in diabetic rats, while R-ALA decreases insulin in diabetic rats:
https://journals.physiology.org/doi/abs/10.1152/ajpendo.1997.273.1.E185
Overall, the evidence for harmful effects of S-ALA is rather weak, though.
Hope this helps.
https://www.nature.com/articles/207535a0.pdf
A 1997 study found that S-ALA increases insulin in diabetic rats, while R-ALA decreases insulin in diabetic rats:
https://journals.physiology.org/doi/abs/10.1152/ajpendo.1997.273.1.E185
Overall, the evidence for harmful effects of S-ALA is rather weak, though.
Hope this helps.
Thanks, wasn't aware of.
And true, such tiny concerns in both cases of rats and ALA intraperitoneally injected, and not replicated in human studies isn't a concern for me. Now I saw the review of ALA at https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/dietary-factors/lipoic-acid#supplements only mentions 1 study, where also intraperitoneally injected ALA in rats actually improved glucose metabolism.
Wasn't aware it might be better taken before a meal.
Instead of thiamine, only a possible biotin-interaction mentioned:
And true, such tiny concerns in both cases of rats and ALA intraperitoneally injected, and not replicated in human studies isn't a concern for me. Now I saw the review of ALA at https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/dietary-factors/lipoic-acid#supplements only mentions 1 study, where also intraperitoneally injected ALA in rats actually improved glucose metabolism.
Wasn't aware it might be better taken before a meal.
Instead of thiamine, only a possible biotin-interaction mentioned:
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https://amzn.to/2ZgOUeT probably started with 1 per day. Then switched over to this https://amzn.to/3etqSna which is a mix of lipoic. One to two per day. Switched due to economic consideration.
I use other methods of detox, if anyone would like those, please reply.
I use other methods of detox, if anyone would like those, please reply.
So in your case 100 mg of R-ALA gave better results than 600 mg of mixed ALA. That's quite a significant difference.
What other detox-methods addtional to ALA? Which might also be a influencing factor, compared to only taking ALA not particularly for detox.
What other detox-methods addtional to ALA? Which might also be a influencing factor, compared to only taking ALA not particularly for detox.
That is a good question concerning the differences. My experiments are not fool proof, but I think that was the case. Could be a difference in the formulation.
For detox, I add other things including Pascalite clay (used Zeolite resultsrna spray for quite some time). I like to put it under the tongue with a little water and let it sit. The rationale behind this is systemic absorption. It can also be ingested so it gets to the gut. . The clays are excellent for detox.
I also use Clean Chlorella which in testing has proved to be less contaminated than other versions. He has the testing to show this. I used other forms previous to this. I also use bulk charcoal for many years. And maybe once per week, do oral EDTA (2 caps).
I also support liver detox with milk thistle type of products and support methlylation with a mix of b vitamins, sulfur containing amino acids such methionine, taurine and NAC or cysteine. I also use sunflower lecithin which contains phosphatidylcholine which is supportive of both liver and cell membranes.
For detox, I add other things including Pascalite clay (used Zeolite resultsrna spray for quite some time). I like to put it under the tongue with a little water and let it sit. The rationale behind this is systemic absorption. It can also be ingested so it gets to the gut. . The clays are excellent for detox.
I also use Clean Chlorella which in testing has proved to be less contaminated than other versions. He has the testing to show this. I used other forms previous to this. I also use bulk charcoal for many years. And maybe once per week, do oral EDTA (2 caps).
I also support liver detox with milk thistle type of products and support methlylation with a mix of b vitamins, sulfur containing amino acids such methionine, taurine and NAC or cysteine. I also use sunflower lecithin which contains phosphatidylcholine which is supportive of both liver and cell membranes.
Thanks for reporting the results of your experiments. Is your R-ALA the sodium salt (Na-R-ALA) or some other formulation of R-ALA?
I ask because it has been reported that the sodium salt (Na-R-ALA) is roughly three times as bioavailable as straight R-ALA.[1] This is attributed to the fact that straight R-ALA can polymerize and clump together instead of being absorbed. This same report claimed that:
Reference
[1] http://archive.foundationalmedicinereview.com/publications/12/4/343.pdf
I ask because it has been reported that the sodium salt (Na-R-ALA) is roughly three times as bioavailable as straight R-ALA.[1] This is attributed to the fact that straight R-ALA can polymerize and clump together instead of being absorbed. This same report claimed that:
Reference
[1] http://archive.foundationalmedicinereview.com/publications/12/4/343.pdf
Yes, it is Doctor's Best Stabilized r-Lipoic with Bioenhanced NA-RALA.
I have a friend with ME stuff going on and has lesions breaking out on her skin, I have attempted every way to detox (some sophisticated approaches) which has not worked (and caused some short-lived problems), but this product seems to give her some relief after a short period of time. I believe that once the cells start normal or semi-normal functioning, then things should get back to center. Of course, she is doing a wide array of antioxidants and other dense nutritionals which keep her afloat. It has been my experience that if I cannot detox properly, I got worse. Keeping a robust detox program, keeps me above water.
If you research pyruvate dehyrdogenase (PDH), you will see that this is an intermediate within the Kreb's cycle and is an important component of that cycle. CFS research shows that PDH is inhibited in CFS patients, the author makes the claim that PDH is inhibited by infections. https://insight.jci.org/articles/view/89376
Dr. Fluge is a known M.E. researcher and had this to say about PDH impairment:
"I think that at present our data are primarily telling us something about the ME/CFS disease. Our findings indicate an impaired function of the PDH enzyme complex, resulting in reduced flux of pyruvate to the [tricarboxylic acid (TCA)] cycle. Increased lactic acid accumulates upon limited exertion, and there is a compensatory use of alternative substrates to fuel the TCA cycle. So, the results indicate an impaired mitochondrial PDH complex function, we believe induced by the immune system,"
If PDH is blocked then energy cannot be produced in the cell, thus leaving the cell with compromised vitality. As you know, the cells do stuff like detoxify, create immunity etc. I would also note that PDH problems induces neurological problems which ME patients seem to have.
From Wikipedia:
Enzymatic activity[edit]
Lipoic acid is a cofactor for at least five enzyme systems.[3] Two of these are in the citric acid cycle through which many organisms turn nutrients into energy. Lipoylated enzymes have lipoic acid attached to them covalently. The lipoyl group transfers acyl groups in 2-oxoacid dehydrogenase complexes, and methylamine group in the glycine cleavage complex or glycine dehydrogenase.[3]
2-Oxoacid dehydrogenase transfer reactions occur by a similar mechanism in:
Sorry for the long post
I have a friend with ME stuff going on and has lesions breaking out on her skin, I have attempted every way to detox (some sophisticated approaches) which has not worked (and caused some short-lived problems), but this product seems to give her some relief after a short period of time. I believe that once the cells start normal or semi-normal functioning, then things should get back to center. Of course, she is doing a wide array of antioxidants and other dense nutritionals which keep her afloat. It has been my experience that if I cannot detox properly, I got worse. Keeping a robust detox program, keeps me above water.
If you research pyruvate dehyrdogenase (PDH), you will see that this is an intermediate within the Kreb's cycle and is an important component of that cycle. CFS research shows that PDH is inhibited in CFS patients, the author makes the claim that PDH is inhibited by infections. https://insight.jci.org/articles/view/89376
Dr. Fluge is a known M.E. researcher and had this to say about PDH impairment:
"I think that at present our data are primarily telling us something about the ME/CFS disease. Our findings indicate an impaired function of the PDH enzyme complex, resulting in reduced flux of pyruvate to the [tricarboxylic acid (TCA)] cycle. Increased lactic acid accumulates upon limited exertion, and there is a compensatory use of alternative substrates to fuel the TCA cycle. So, the results indicate an impaired mitochondrial PDH complex function, we believe induced by the immune system,"
If PDH is blocked then energy cannot be produced in the cell, thus leaving the cell with compromised vitality. As you know, the cells do stuff like detoxify, create immunity etc. I would also note that PDH problems induces neurological problems which ME patients seem to have.
From Wikipedia:
Enzymatic activity[edit]
Lipoic acid is a cofactor for at least five enzyme systems.[3] Two of these are in the citric acid cycle through which many organisms turn nutrients into energy. Lipoylated enzymes have lipoic acid attached to them covalently. The lipoyl group transfers acyl groups in 2-oxoacid dehydrogenase complexes, and methylamine group in the glycine cleavage complex or glycine dehydrogenase.[3]
2-Oxoacid dehydrogenase transfer reactions occur by a similar mechanism in:
- the pyruvate dehydrogenase complex
- the α-ketoglutarate dehydrogenase or 2-oxoglutarate dehydrogenase complex
- the branched-chain oxoacid dehydrogenase (BCDH) complex
- the acetoin dehydrogenase complex.
Sorry for the long post
Thanks, I enjoyed your long post. I will add one more bit from Wikipedia:
I think this raises an important, but overlooked point. Alpha-lipoic-acid (ALA) in its natural state in the mitochondria only exists bound to protein. There is no free ALA naturally floating around in the human body. So when we ingest free ALA, the effects we see could be due to free ALA floating around in the body, or the effects we see could be due to mitochondria that have managed to bind the ALA to the correct protein in the mitochondria.
When I looked through the literature describing the mechanism of action of ALA supplements, the articles mostly tended to assume that the effect of ALA supplements is due to free ALA floating around in the body.[1] Indeed, that is the same assumption made by chelation protocols that call for ALA in order to remove heavy metals.
But the literature also included a number of ALA trials that implied that ALA supplements improve mitochondrial function, which then implies that free ALA may sometimes end up bound to the correct protein in mitochondria.[2] I have tried to elucidate the enzymatic steps that would need to occur for this to happen:
References:
[1] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1179/135100005X21624
[2] https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/be92/f5ec1e2915508fdc146be4eff2e2413cc534.pdf
I think this raises an important, but overlooked point. Alpha-lipoic-acid (ALA) in its natural state in the mitochondria only exists bound to protein. There is no free ALA naturally floating around in the human body. So when we ingest free ALA, the effects we see could be due to free ALA floating around in the body, or the effects we see could be due to mitochondria that have managed to bind the ALA to the correct protein in the mitochondria.
When I looked through the literature describing the mechanism of action of ALA supplements, the articles mostly tended to assume that the effect of ALA supplements is due to free ALA floating around in the body.[1] Indeed, that is the same assumption made by chelation protocols that call for ALA in order to remove heavy metals.
But the literature also included a number of ALA trials that implied that ALA supplements improve mitochondrial function, which then implies that free ALA may sometimes end up bound to the correct protein in mitochondria.[2] I have tried to elucidate the enzymatic steps that would need to occur for this to happen:
- Free ALA is first activated by enzyme ACSM1
- Activated ALA is then bound to the correct protein in the mitochondria by enzyme LIPT1
References:
[1] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1179/135100005X21624
[2] https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/be92/f5ec1e2915508fdc146be4eff2e2413cc534.pdf
@LINE I'm curious about the Pascalite clay. On this site's page their analysis states it contains 16% aluminum.https://www.pascalite.net/Natural-Wound-Care-Worland-WY.html I believe that is even higher than zeolite. IIRC the debate with zeolite is that it removes more aluminum than it deposits or maybe they state it doesn't deposit any - I can't remember. As I type this I do wonder if the nano-zeolite products (like ResultsRNA) could actually be more dangerous than the larger particle size? I suppose there is a place to use several different sizes of zeolite. Anyway, I'm curious about the Pascalite. I haven't heard of it before. Would appreciate your thoughts on the aluminum content.
I'm pretty sure I'm toxic with heavy metals and would imagine some have passed the bbb. I've been tweaking my B's (that's been a journey), and have been doing Mercola's chlorella, and trying to find a tolerable dose of NAC. (NAC is giving me a headache either due to increased NO, and/or glutamate activity, and/or vasodilation). Have added in zeolite and charcoal. I'm thinking to stay the course for a month or two and then use the more expensive ResultsRNA product you mentioned. Maybe I'll rotate in the Pascalite. I like the idea that it is negatively charged, but am concerned on the aluminum. I drink a lot of Fiji water which removes aluminum - and this may be helpful for keeping aluminum at bay with pascalite.
Regarding ALA. I'm no expert but for those interested I believe this Geronova not only manufactures the most bio-avaible Na-R-LA product, but they have great info on their site. From what I've learned, most people are throwing money away on ALA sups. The R is definitely better and safer, but it loses it potency very quickly on the shelf. I recently did 7 days of 500mg IV ALA (trying to reverse damage done by exceedingly high methylmalonic acid levels). Now, I've switched to Geronova's product and I feel it is just as good as IV. Plus it doesn't contain the S form which is 50% of the IV formula. They happen to sell their LA in bulk which makes it reasonably priced and without fillers and other garbage. https://geronova.com/
The have a new research product called PNB alpha phenyl-N- tert butyl nitrone which is most commonly used for a spin trap. I thought I'd try it, but I think it must cause vasodilation because it (also) increased my headache. But it might be interesting for some folks here to try.
I'm pretty sure I'm toxic with heavy metals and would imagine some have passed the bbb. I've been tweaking my B's (that's been a journey), and have been doing Mercola's chlorella, and trying to find a tolerable dose of NAC. (NAC is giving me a headache either due to increased NO, and/or glutamate activity, and/or vasodilation). Have added in zeolite and charcoal. I'm thinking to stay the course for a month or two and then use the more expensive ResultsRNA product you mentioned. Maybe I'll rotate in the Pascalite. I like the idea that it is negatively charged, but am concerned on the aluminum. I drink a lot of Fiji water which removes aluminum - and this may be helpful for keeping aluminum at bay with pascalite.
Regarding ALA. I'm no expert but for those interested I believe this Geronova not only manufactures the most bio-avaible Na-R-LA product, but they have great info on their site. From what I've learned, most people are throwing money away on ALA sups. The R is definitely better and safer, but it loses it potency very quickly on the shelf. I recently did 7 days of 500mg IV ALA (trying to reverse damage done by exceedingly high methylmalonic acid levels). Now, I've switched to Geronova's product and I feel it is just as good as IV. Plus it doesn't contain the S form which is 50% of the IV formula. They happen to sell their LA in bulk which makes it reasonably priced and without fillers and other garbage. https://geronova.com/
The have a new research product called PNB alpha phenyl-N- tert butyl nitrone which is most commonly used for a spin trap. I thought I'd try it, but I think it must cause vasodilation because it (also) increased my headache. But it might be interesting for some folks here to try.
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I have excellent results with the bioavailable rLipoic. Definitely a difference from the ala/rla product I was taking. Now I do 1 cap every other day. I have reduced pain, better energy. I mostly gauge products from observation.
I have read the same information on the aluminum content of these products, both the pro and con. I have used resultsrna for over 10 years. Pascalite, I have used 5 bottles. I will remark that I do mineral analysis via hair* and got a positive for cadmium release after I did the resultsrna zeolite. They used to have documentation on their site showing levels on hair tissue analysis. The issue with hair analysis is that heavy metals usually do not show up unless they are 1/ being provoked or 2/ recent exposure. I have not seem any aluminum levels on the hair tests, perhaps I am missing something.
This is a big issue with heavy metal stores, that is that the body will sequester toxic metals, e.g. they go in hiding unless provoked. There is considerable studies showing the agonist/antagonist relationships with normal minerals and toxic metals. In other words, abnormal levels of common minerals can allow the body to put the toxins in storage rather than excreting them. This link shows antagonisms of zinc which include Lead (pb) and Cadmium (cd) https://traceelements.com/Docs/The Nutritional Relationships of Zinc.pdf. Selenium will work against mercury (hg), cadmium (cd) etc. https://traceelements.com/Docs/The Nutritional Relationships of Selenium.pdf
There are other educational articles on that site which are worth reading.
I really like Clean Chlorella which was much better than common chlorella. The argument is that chlorella can collect the toxins if grown in toxic environments. CC claims that their products are grown indoor and not exposed to unnecessary toxins.
I also use small amounts of oral EDTA. Probably an average of 3 to 4 caps per week.
*I use Trace Elements Inc for testing, which I have done for 25 years. I like their approach and educational materials that are provided with their reports. I am a provider as well.
I have read the same information on the aluminum content of these products, both the pro and con. I have used resultsrna for over 10 years. Pascalite, I have used 5 bottles. I will remark that I do mineral analysis via hair* and got a positive for cadmium release after I did the resultsrna zeolite. They used to have documentation on their site showing levels on hair tissue analysis. The issue with hair analysis is that heavy metals usually do not show up unless they are 1/ being provoked or 2/ recent exposure. I have not seem any aluminum levels on the hair tests, perhaps I am missing something.
This is a big issue with heavy metal stores, that is that the body will sequester toxic metals, e.g. they go in hiding unless provoked. There is considerable studies showing the agonist/antagonist relationships with normal minerals and toxic metals. In other words, abnormal levels of common minerals can allow the body to put the toxins in storage rather than excreting them. This link shows antagonisms of zinc which include Lead (pb) and Cadmium (cd) https://traceelements.com/Docs/The Nutritional Relationships of Zinc.pdf. Selenium will work against mercury (hg), cadmium (cd) etc. https://traceelements.com/Docs/The Nutritional Relationships of Selenium.pdf
There are other educational articles on that site which are worth reading.
I really like Clean Chlorella which was much better than common chlorella. The argument is that chlorella can collect the toxins if grown in toxic environments. CC claims that their products are grown indoor and not exposed to unnecessary toxins.
I also use small amounts of oral EDTA. Probably an average of 3 to 4 caps per week.
*I use Trace Elements Inc for testing, which I have done for 25 years. I like their approach and educational materials that are provided with their reports. I am a provider as well.
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