Question on PK diet

[marcjf]

Hello,

I have tested positive for Ochratoxin A, and I wanted to get started on a mold avoidance lifestyle, starting by my diet. I found some conflicting information so far.

Dr Myhill suggests a Paleo-Ketogenic (PK) diet (https://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Chr..._cause_of_disease:_the_toxicity_of_mycotoxins).

Just as a standard Ketogenic diet, you need to get into Ketosis (https://drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/My_book...leo-ketogenic_and_get_the_best_of_both_worlds).


But I also found out that fungi do as well on Ketones as they do on Glucose

So pathogens that have mitochondria like fungi and protozoa can metabolize ketones for energy. Bacteria and viruses can’t, and so if you go on a ketogenic diet you’ll starve bacteria and viruses but you’ll feed fungi and protozoa.

From : https://chriskresser.com/episode-15-dr-paul-jaminet-on-chronic-infections-depression-more/

It is not unheard of candida breakouts while on a Keto diet.
I was wondering then what is the importance of the PK diet regarding mold avoidance? Do any of you follow it? I bet Dr Myhill has an explanation, but I could not find it in that guide.

 

[xebex]

i am not a mold avoider, so maybe this info isn't valid for you, but keto made me worse. I did all the right things like taking enough electrolytes and my macros were correct but I got significantly worse on it.

For me the best diet is a primal diet which is basically paleo with the addition of ancient grains and raw dairy, and I kept my carb intake around 80grms a day. I did it with normal dairy and I also made sure I ate resistant starch, (cooked and cooled potatoes or rice) it was helpful for my gut microbiome as pure prebiotic powders, colostrum and probiotics all gave me terrible panic attacks. I ate like that for a couple of years and now I can tolerate sugar much more but I'm still careful with it and limit it a lot.

 

[marcjf]

Thanks for the insight, xebex. I know Keto is not supposed to be taken lightly. I do see it more as a treatment, rather than a fad diet. We do have some other members doing pretty well though, based on what I searched. Although its risks also scare me: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41392-020-00411-4


In my case, I am curious how it would affect fungi. I am either only dealing with that, or with Covid-19 debris still. Some people have been doing autophagy to get rid of it, and I was considering that.

 

[Learner1]

In my case, I am curious how it would affect fungi.

A low carb diet with antifungals (Nystatin and Diflucan) was extremely helpful to me in getting rid of candida, if done for 2-3 months

For me the best diet is a primal diet which is basically paleo with the addition of ancient grains and raw dairy, and I kept my carb intake around 80grms a day. I did it with normal dairy and I also made sure I ate resistant starch, (cooked and cooled potatoes or rice) it was helpful for my gut microbiome as pure prebiotic powders, colostrum and probiotics all gave me terrible panic attacks. I ate like that for a couple of years and now I can tolerate sugar much more but I'm still careful with it and limit it a lot.

This diet you're describing would make me very ill. I don't do well with grains except white rice and am allergic to cow milk. The resistant starch is typically corn, which has RoundUp and I'm really allergic to it.

A Paleo/Keto diet that's low in oxalates might be helpful. (Oxalates can make a candida problem worse.,)

 

[xebex]

A low carb diet with antifungals (Nystatin and Diflucan) was extremely helpful to me in getting rid of candida, if done for 2-3 months
This diet you're describing would make me very ill. I don't do well with grains except white rice and am allergic to cow milk. The resistant starch is typically corn, which has RoundUp and I'm really allergic to it.

A Paleo/Keto diet that's low in oxalates might be helpful. (Oxalates can make a candida problem worse.,)

Resistant starch is not just corn, I never said anything about eating corn. I said I ate cooked then cooled rice and potatoes. Eating pure resistant starch in the form of processed corn or potatoes starch also makes me ill. If you are eating white rice you are also eating resistant starch, especially if you ever eat it cold.

 

[Learner1]

reaitant starch is not just corn. I said I ate cooked then cooled rice and potatoes. Eating pure resistant starch in the form of processed corn or potatoes starch also makes me ill. But if you are eating white rice you are also eating resistant starch. Especially if you ever eat it cold.

Great. Potatoes have oxalates which can promote candida.

 

[xebex]

Great. Potatoes have oxalates which can promote candida.

And so can eating white rice so I’m not sure your point?

 

[marcjf]

A low carb diet with antifungals (Nystatin and Diflucan) was extremely helpful to me in getting rid of candida, if done for 2-3 months
This diet you're describing would make me very ill. I don't do well with grains except white rice and am allergic to cow milk. The resistant starch is typically corn, which has RoundUp and I'm really allergic to it.

A Paleo/Keto diet that's low in oxalates might be helpful. (Oxalates can make a candida problem worse.,)

Great to hear it helped you, but I guess the key ingredient there is the antifungal.
Do you know if you were in ketosis for that period?

 

[Learner1]

Great to hear it helped you, but I guess the key ingredient there is the antifungal.

Exactly. I don't think one would be successful without an antifungal.

Do you know if you were in ketosis for that period?

I have no idea, but it's possible, as I was very strict about the low carb. However, it's likely my protein intake was too high to be in ketosis, which is the min reason I haven't found keto diet to work for me.

It was before I really knew about ketosis, and what got me interested in it in the first place.

 

[Learner1]

And so can eating white rice so I’m not sure your point?

The point was your recommended diet would make me very ill, as it would many other people around here.

 

[xebex]

The point was your recommended diet would make me very ill, as it would many other people around here.

That is a huge assumption to make about how it would affect other people. Keto is thrown about all over the place and made me very ill so I think the piont is we share our experiences and the reader can make up their own mind.

 

[FinRinTin]

Unfortunately I can't add anything to your mold question.

But since last year August I'm eating exclusively the Keto way.
This means I'm tracking my food and I stay below 20g carbs per day.

I think that my food intake is almost like the classic mediterranean diet (except of my daily soya bean yoghurt for breakfast): a lot of vegetables and nuts but also cheese and sausages, olive oil and eggs.
Once per week a steak and once per week salmon.

Calories are mostly from olive oil, cheese and avocados.
The diet is slightly boring but tasty

The main benefit is an increase in energy.
Not consistent every day but on average surely.

 

[marcjf]

Exactly. I don't think one would be successful without an antifungal.

I have no idea, but it's possible, as I was very strict about the low carb. However, it's likely my protein intake was too high to be in ketosis, which is the min reason I haven't found keto diet to work for me.

It was before I really knew about ketosis, and what got me interested in it in the first place.

Thanks for clarifying

 

[marcjf]

Unfortunately I can't add anything to your mold question.

But since last year August I'm eating exclusively the Keto way.
This means I'm tracking my food and I stay below 20g carbs per day.

I think that my food intake is almost like the classic mediterranean diet (except of my daily soya bean yoghurt for breakfast): a lot of vegetables and nuts but also cheese and sausages, olive oil and eggs.
Once per week a steak and once per week salmon.

Calories are mostly from olive oil, cheese and avocados.
The diet is slightly boring but tasty

The main benefit is an increase in energy.
Not consistent every day but on average surely.

That seems quite strict. I would not mind doing a Mediterranean diet. I really like it.
These days my energy levels seem quite good. The bigger issue is inflammation. Chest and kidney pain.

I've been able to dial it down via quercetin + anti-histamines, but I think the diet will be better long-term.

 

[Learner1]

Unfortunately I can't add anything to your mold question.

But since last year August I'm eating exclusively the Keto way.
This means I'm tracking my food and I stay below 20g carbs per day.

I think that my food intake is almost like the classic mediterranean diet (except of my daily soya bean yoghurt for breakfast): a lot of vegetables and nuts but also cheese and sausages, olive oil and eggs.
Once per week a steak and once per week salmon.

Calories are mostly from olive oil, cheese and avocados.
The diet is slightly boring but tasty

The main benefit is an increase in energy.
Not consistent every day but on average surely.

Research has shown that ME/CFS patients are short of several amino acids. To stay in ketosis one must be fairly low in protein also.

Are you sure you're in ketosis?

And are you taking supplements to make up for the nutrients not in this radical diet, like folate, B5, biotin, alpha lipoic acid, vitamin E, molybdenum, iodine to name just a few?

Additionally, cheese is very high in tryptophan, compared with other amino acids, promoting sleep and setting off Dr. Phair's metabolic trap. This is for 1 oz of cheddar cheese:

Without key nutrients, biochemical pathways won't work - this is why interventions can stop working.

The other thing I'd if you're not eating organic dairy, you can end up with an awful lot of toxins, like RoundUp, in your system. And, if you don't take any folate, it may be difficult to get rid of the toxins.

 

[hb8847]

I was wondering then what is the importance of the PK diet regarding mold avoidance? Do any of you follow it? I bet Dr Myhill has an explanation, but I could not find it in that guide.

In my experience Myhill is very wedded to her diet, but I don't know whether it's true that Keto diets are healthy for the long term. Diet science is incredibly murky, partly because it's nigh on impossible to get a proper "control" sample for any diet.

I imagine her reasoning for PK diets regarding mould is that sugar and processed carbs (bread etc) will feed any bad bacteria and fungus residing in the small intestine. So long as you are avoiding those foods I suspect you'll be fine, although obviously it's upt to you and feel free to experiment, in fact I would highly recommend you do just in case.

Most gut health promoting diets I've come across suggest that you probably wont go far wrong with a diet high in vegetables, healthy fats, and small amounts of meat.

 

[Learner1]

Most gut health promoting diets I've come across suggest that you probably wont go far wrong with a diet high in vegetables, healthy fats, and small amounts of meat.

Good advice, except if someone has had antibiotics kill off all their oxalate degrading bacteria, eating plant-based foods that are high in oxalates can dramatically worsen their situation.

 

[hb8847]

Sure, different people will have issues with different diets. I myself am highly sensitive and can't handle most foods, I just meant if you're worried about finding a diet which is healthy and which won't promote yeast growth, you probably can't go too far wrong with lots of veggies and a bit of healthy fat/protein. Avoidance of the really bad stuff is more important than which good stuff you choose.

 

[Learner1]

Sure, different people will have issues with different diets. I myself am highly sensitive and can't handle most foods, I just meant if you're worried about finding a diet which is healthy and which won't promote yeast growth, you probably can't go too far wrong with lots of veggies and a bit of healthy fat/protein.

ME/CFS research has shown that ME/CFS patients, particularly women, tend to be short of amino acids, so most will need more than "a bit" of protein. The research has also shown deficencies in lipids which are used in cell and mitochondrial membranes, so adequate fat is an necessity too, not just "a bit." There has also been research supporting use of higher fat diets in these patients. And, many people have issues with grains, particularly gluten containing grains.

 

[hb8847]

I think you're misunderstanding my point. I'm not giving advice on what the ideal diet is for someone with CFS. There are many different claims as to whether high protein, high fat or otherwise are beneficial, and different people do better on different diets for ME/CFS - if there was one definite best diet we'd all be on it.

My message was in response to someone asking about which diet should they be on to reduce the growth of mould, and referenced Dr Myhill and her PK diet. Now, I was under Dr Myhill's care for a few years and have read her books on diet, so I think I'm in a fairly good place to comment here.

And my take was that while Myhill is clearly more up to speed on CFS matters than most she comes across as very wedded to certain ideas even when it's shown they are not working or worse are actively worsening the state of the patient. She was very keen for me to stick to her diet for mould treatment, for example, but it ended up doing me a lot of harm because she hadn't factored in other health concerns.

She also wasn't able to identify why I began having very bad reactions to the foods she recommended; she thought I must have had allergies, urged me to persevere and prescribed a medication which made me considerably worse. I ended up having to search for help elsewhere, and eventually found an immunologist who diagnosed MCAS and Histamine Intolerance, and we went from there.

So my comment on mould and Dr Myhill is taking all this in to account. My intention isn't to dig out Myhill, it's to provide some context on the fact that not all doctors know everything, and in her case diet and food sensitivities seemed a real blind spot. It's all fine and well promoting a particular diet, but if it's clearly harming the patient the right thing to do is take a step back and take stock.

And, she is very wedded to her ideas. She's obsessed for example with ultra high dose Vitamin C for the treatment of bacterial dysbiosis, in spite of the fact it's been shown to worsen leaky gut. She also loves her PK diet, she promotes it in all her books, cookbooks etc which no doubt bring in some nice revenue. But there is very little evidence to suggest it works for gut health beyond avoidance of sugar and processed foods. My point is, there are many ways of avoiding sugar and unhealthy foods, don't feel the need to stick with her diet.

And for the average person, high veg, some healthy protein and some healthy fat is a good diet.