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Purported cure for Latent Virus sustained ME/CFS by Joshua Leisk and Aline Nocon

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,393
Location
Austria
I may have missed it - which reishi product are you using? The triterpenes / triterpenoids are the active ingredients. We're targeting around 40mg of triterpenes, at least 3x a day.

Josh sent me a Life extension reishi extract which works out as about £40 a month UK money.

From the other thread the link to it at €27.30 a bottle:

Concerning the Reishi extract, looking for sources here in the EU, would this product be a viable option: https://www.lifeextensioneurope.com/reishi-extract-mushroom-complex

Supplement Facts
Serving Size 2 vegetarian capsules
Servings per Container 30
Amount per Serving
Reishi mushroom (Ganoderma lucidum) extract (fruit body) [std to 13.5% polysaccharides (132.3 mg) and 6% triterpenes (58.8 mg)]

Therefore at almost 60mg triterenes from two capsules, one would have to take 4 capsules a day to almost reach 120mg (3x40mg) triterpenes. That way a bottle lasting 15 days only. At €54.60 a month.

Or if it wouldn't, wouldn't a 1:1 alcohol extract anywway only contain what it was extracted from? And therefore pure Reishi powder contain just as much?: https://www.sunday.de/reishi-pulver-ganzer-pilz/bio-reishi-pulver-rohkost-set.html

At €56.64 for 200g.

I’m personally using 2-3g of organic reishi powder / day for maintenance (along with “very large” amounts of beta-glucans)

In this post with the protocol at 3x500mg = 1500 mg/d: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...e-spectrum-disorder.83371/page-4#post-2335846

So the 200g organic reishi powder lasting for 130 days, or at least 4 months. At only €12.74 a month!
Or only double that if taking the most @joshua.leisk does.
 
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godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,554
Location
United Kingdom
godlovesatrier said:
Josh sent me a Life extension reishi extract which works out as about £40 a month UK money.
From the other thread the link to it at €27.30 a bottle:

Yes but a months worth of dosing is 1 x 3 per day = 3 tablets per day. 60/3 = 20 days worth, so you would need 2 bottles to get through the month with a little overlap.

Therefore at almost 60mg triterenes from two capsules, one would have to take 4 capsules a day to almost reach 120mg (3x40mg) triterpenes. That way a bottle lasting 15 days only. At €54.60 a month.
Ok so at this level yes we're talking about £80 a month I think.
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,393
Location
Austria

Reading_Steiner

Senior Member
Messages
245
Yes but a months worth of dosing is 1 x 3 per day = 3 tablets per day. 60/3 = 20 days worth, so you would need 2 bottles to get through the month with a little overlap.


Ok so at this level yes we're talking about £80 a month I think.
This one ? https://www.amazon.co.uk/Life-Exten...s=life+extension+reishi&qid=1620818741&sr=8-4
I wonder if I should switch to that one if thats what Joshua picked out for you. Its only a bit more than the Indigo one costs.
 

joshua.leisk

Joshua Leisk (Researcher)
Messages
232
Location
Sydney, Australia
Yep it's gets very expensive when you cost out the liposamal glutathione. Initially I spent £180. I reckon it's double that for a month's supply. That's why I keep balking at the prices 😔
Ouch. AUD$100 for a month of liposomal glutathione here.

Likely you’ll want this for the first month and once the main immune response has completely subsided, you may be able to drop it. Till will tell. ☺️👍🏻
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,554
Location
United Kingdom
The tincture might be fine but the main reason I wanted to switch was because the alcohol was stripping the enamel on my back molars which causes me endless issues which my dentist can't do anything about. Josh has a good point though about the guaranteed triterpenes.

And there's good points made about the amount of tablets needed per day to reach the right level of triterpenes.

I might cost it all out in the next hour, I need to do it anyway to see how much I'm spending :(
 

Reading_Steiner

Senior Member
Messages
245
Update on treatment situation - I didn't want to go to the supermarket because I estimated that my chances of catching something that might be going around might be higher now due to these adjustments to the body, but someone failed twice to get me the cheese that I like to eat by itself ( find most cheese is a bit difficult to just eat in large quantities by itself ), so I had to to it myself. I got around the supermarket quite swiftly this time and got in and out in maybe 5 minutes, normally I slog through and keep stopping. I also played battlefield last night with my brother for a 3 hours, which is a lot longer than I would usually manage, it gave me a headache and the familiar neck ache but they went away after a couple of hours, but no other symptoms and no crash.
No crashes at all since starting the treatment about 5 days ago. PEM is minimal.

Today after consuming this deluge of drugs i'm thinking of going and finishing making a table that I started around 3 weeks ago but was unable to finish. Its a fairly simple design and I only needed to make... 8 diagonal cuts across 44mm^2 PSE timber with a jigsaw and drill 8 screw holes to finish the table, but I found I was unable to bring myself to even use a power tool due to a slow motion crash that was worsening day by day, my neighbours probably appreciated the peace and quiet though.
 

Reading_Steiner

Senior Member
Messages
245
I only managed to do some preparation in the end, muscles and stuff didn't want to make the energy and I felt sort of sleepy and overly hot / tired after not much effort, ended up back on the computer. I don't see this as necessarily a setback. I should be lowering the sodium benzoate today but I am worried I wont be able to without continuing to get headaches, thats going to be the next interesting part of the process.
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,554
Location
United Kingdom
Just go back on it if the headaches come back, no harm no foul there. Yeah don't rush, honestly I've regularly felt shit for 2 weeks when taking stuff before I have sudden energy boosts and feel completely different. How long it takes you will be unique but the first 2 weeks may not be much of an energy boost to begin with.
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,937
I tried some capsules of organic green tea yesterday, and woke up in the middle of the night shaking....

I wonder if I couldn't tolerate the theanine content?

Did you start your Green Tea product?

Here the one I tried, it seems less strong than yours!

1620847865558.png


Yes the bright yellow is from the b vitamins, that's normal, comes with taking such high doses.

You've more or less bought the same stuff I did. I'm just not sure if I've got the right green tea extract, time will tell. I got this one:

View attachment 42796
View attachment 42797

Hoping to split the green tea pills/capsules to get to Josh's recommended dose.

Just a question Steiner - how did your first 4 days taking the sodium benzoate, panthothenic acid, glycine and cysteine go?

Hoping this works for you, fingers crossed.
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,554
Location
United Kingdom
Hey @pattismith

Hmm it sounds like you've taken way way more than myself or the others. Josh recommends 25mg egcg. Which is an 8th of a dose. So I top most of my capsule out and then weigh it until I have an 8th of a dose. Each capsule contains 203mg ecgc. So divided by 8 I get close to 25mg.

What's the mg egcg in one of your green tea capsules?

4% of 500mg would be roughly 25mg egcg.
 
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pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,937
Hey @pattismith

Hmm it sounds like you've taken way way more than myself or the others. Josh recommends 25mg egcg. Which is an 8th of a dose. So I top most of my capsule out and then weigh it until I have an 8th of a dose. Each capsule contains 203mg ecgc. So divided by 8 I get close to 25mg.

What's the mg egcg in one of your green tea capsules?

4% of 500mg would be roughly 25mg egcg. So one capsule would be plenty :)
I took two capsules in the evening, I 'll take one in the morning next time...
 

Reading_Steiner

Senior Member
Messages
245
I'm experiencing a return of normal symptoms as I taper off the Sodium Benzoate ( got it down to 0.2g now ),
no headaches in particular, or rather not the feeling that I really need to take it to relieve the pressure feeling.
So basically I felt really sleepy, lied down for a few hours without actually sleeping, just watched videos,
noticed my heart rate was up again and 'stronger', muscles in my thigh felt more sensitive and generally I had the feeling that I will get PEM if I keep trying to use energy. Now having some stomach issues flaring up again, this makes me wonder if the gut bacteria could be feeding on the excess nitrogen things we are generating ?
This isn't really a surprise because Joshua said that ' sodium benzoate provides a low energy pathway for removal of excess nitrogen'. So taking that away and the body gets stuck again in that cycle of maladjusted energy generation -> stop and purge the waste products -> repeat. Its also been a good few days now since I last took the succinate and I wonder if that may have an effect. Oh also fever is disappointingly lower / not obvious today.
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,393
Location
Austria
Ouch. AUD$100 for a month of liposomal glutathione here.

How sure you are about the liposomal glutathione being essential?

I ask because I always been sceptical about the promotional unsubstanciated claims about superiority in intracellular absorbtion of liposomal ascorbate. Only last year finally a study testing found liposomal at equal doses increased serum levels equally, but intracellular levels only the area under the curve 50% larger. If one considers that liposomal is up to 80 times more expensive, and with only 50% more of super cheap ascorbic acid the exact same effect - not really cost-effective in any way,

To my knowledge, liposomal glutathione has also not been tested in humans but mice, which alledgedly already absorb regular glutathion much better than humans. Any additional research you came accross in humans I'm not aware of?

In the end, all of the following items are utilized for ROS reduction in this protocol:

EGCG 80-100 mg/d
R-ALA 0.6-0.9 g/d
NAC 1.8-3 g/d
Vitamin C 0.6 g/d
Vitamin E 268 mg/d
Glutathione liposomal 1.5 g/d
Glycine 20 g/d

I could think of dozen other co-factors in ROS reduction. Or much more effective doses, for example with vitamin C.

Also this article is interesting: https://drknews.com/glutathione-recycling-for-autoimmune-disease/ in mentioning alternative methods of boosting - like with nebulizer or suppository - as well as recycling glutathione:

(excerpt:)

Glutathione recycling explained

Glutathione recycling is a separate function from just boosting glutathione levels through a liposomal cream, intravenously, a nebulizer, a suppository, or other means. These forms of glutathione delivery will help one’s antioxidant status but they do not raise levels of glutathione inside the cells. Glutathione is the main antioxidant for mitochondria, the little factories inside each cell that convert nutrients into energy. Some cells have more mitochondria than others depending on the cell’s function. This is important because an autoimmune disease destroys the mitochondria in the affected cells, thus causing tissue destruction, and glutathione protects these mitochondria.

Reduced glutathione versus oxidized glutathione

But not just any form of glutathione does this—it needs to be reduced glutathione. There are two main forms of glutathione in the body: reduced glutathione (GSH) and oxidized glutathione (GSSG).

Reduced glutathione, or GSH, is the bodyguard who “takes the hit” from free radicals that damage cells. Free radicals are molecules that are unstable because they have unpaired electrons and are looking for another electron to steal in order to become stable. They steal electrons from the mitochondria, thus destroying them and causing inflammation and degeneration.

However when there’s plenty of GSH in the cell, the GSH sacrifice themselves to the free radicals—throwing themselves in front of the bullet—in order to protect the mitochondria. Thus the GSH ends up with an unpaired electron and becomes unstable, at which point it becomes GSSG, or oxidized glutathione, which is technically a free radical itself.

Doesn’t this make GSSG dangerous to the cell then? When there is sufficient glutathione in the cell, the unstable GSSG naturally pairs with available glutathione in the cell with the help of an enzyme called glutathione reductase, returning back to its reduced glutathione state so it’s ready for action once again.

The key thing to remember is that two enzymes play important roles in these processes:
  • Glutathione peroxidase triggers the reaction of GSH to GSSG, which is when glutathione “takes the hit” to spare the cell
  • Glutathione reductase triggers the conversion of GSSG back to useable GSH.
These enzymes come into consideration when we look at how to support the glutathione system nutritionally.
...

Supporting glutathione recycling

So how do we support glutathione recycling? The first thing is to reduce the stressors depleting this vital system. The bulk of my thyroid book is devoted to this: balancing blood sugar, addressing food intolerances, restoring gut health, and managing adrenal function are foundational.

Other considerations are neurotransmitter imbalances and hormonal imbalances, which may require specialized guidance from a qualified health care practitioner. And of course making any lifestyle changes you can, such as getting enough sleep, paring down an overactive schedule, making exercise a priority each day, creating time to do things you love, and so on.

Once you have addressed these factors (which for many people can actually take care of the problem) and autoimmune dysfunction persists, then boosting glutathione recycling may be necessary. Below I cover the basic botanicals and nutritional compounds researchers have found support glutathione recycling pathways.
  • N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC): NAC is a key compound to glutathione activity. It is rapidly metabolized into intracellular glutathione.
  • Alpha-lipoic acid (ALA): ALA directly recycles and extends the metabolic life spans of vitamin C, glutathione, and coenzyme Q10, and it indirectly renews vitamin E, all of which are necessary for glutathione recycling.
  • L-glutamine: Research has shown that l-glutamine is important for the generation of glutathione. It is transported into the cell, converted to glutamate, and readily available to intracellular glutathione synthesis.
  • Selenium: Selenium is a trace element nutrient that serves as the essential cofactor for the enzyme glutathione peroxidase, which converts GSH to GSSG so glutathione can “take the hit” by free radicals to spare cells.
  • Cordyceps: Cordyceps has been shown to activate both glutathione and peroxidase synthesis in the body. It has also been shown to protect cells by engaging the glutathione enzyme cycle.
  • Gotu kola (Centella Asiatica): Research has clearly demonstrated that oral intake of gotu kola rapidly and dramatically increases the activity and amount of glutathione peroxidase and the quantity of glutathione.
  • Milk thistle (Silybum marianum): Milk thistle has been shown to significantly increase glutathione, increase superoxide dismutase (another powerful antioxidant) activity, and positively influence the ratios of reduced and oxidized glutathione.
Taken together these botanicals and compounds activate the glutathione peroxidase and reductase enzymes that promote a healthy glutathione recycling system.

Many more such articles about raising glutathione found on the net. For example: http://www.immunehealthscience.com/how-to-raise-glutathione.html or https://selfhacked.com/blog/glutathione-20-scientifically-proven-health-benefits-glutathione/

There are several ways and supplement forms to bypass this limitation [79]:
  • Liposomal [80]
  • Sublingual (absorbed directly into the bloodstream) [81]
  • Slow-release tablets dissolved in the mouth or lozenges [82, 83]
  • Inhaled formulations [84]
  • Methyl glutathione (GGT cannot break it down) [85]
  • Coated tablets [86]
  • IV injections (the safety has not been established!) [87]

In the end, oxidative stress and glutathione status could actually be very different in different individuals, requiring different interventions. Not always the most expensive interventions - like liposomal glutathione - are that neccesary or even cost-effective.

Take my latest results:
oxidated LDL (oxLdL; 20-170 normal range; <60 optimal range): 44 ug/l (down from 140)
Glutathione peroxidase (GSH-Px; Selenium dependent; 27.5-73.6 normal; 69-90 optimal): 78 U/gHb (up from 43)

I think that an already by a 2/3 reduced oxidative stress, and doubled GSH-Px activity wouldn't still require the same ammunition.